Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SlowTrainComing · 07-16-2008, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by question_it_all

I think you're missing the point here STC. What Incoherent fool was saying is that according to your post, belief is a pre-requisite for belief. That won't convert many agnostics much less atheists.

Try viewing your same argument from the point of view of a non-believer. How would you react if we said to you, all that is required for you to recieve eternal bliss and salvation is to open yourself honestly to the Tooth Fairy and see if He speaks to you, coz we know He will. Or substitute Tooth Fairy with Allah, or Zeus, or any other figure you deem to be imaginary. Hopefully you can see the futility of asking non-believers to simply "believe" in order for them to believe.

Yes, I understand this concept of humanistic logic. But understand that there is more to Faith in Christ than convincing yourself of the Truth. The Seal of the Holy Spirit is a very real Seal that confirms your Faith. All I'm asking you to do is ask. Humble yourself, open your mind and ask. You will receive an answer, and if you want the Seal you'll get it.

Quote:

Says you. But why should we believe that? Why should we believe god has a conscious mind when we can't accept that god exists outside of your imagination? Your posts are rife with unfounded assumptions which you ask us to believe simply because you do. Until you provide us with a reasonable argument for why we should believe I see no reason to view your opinions as anything other than self-fulfilling delusions

They're not "my opinions." They're factual. As I've said umpteen times in this thread alone, humble yourself and ask God.

Or, wallow in our embarrassingly incomplete humanism and convince yourself that we're super-duper. Entirely your choice.

SlowTrainComing · 07-16-2008, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incoherent fool

I did. He didn't. When I was a Christian, I was desperate for a sign. The fact that I never received one is just one

How do you "know" that? Were you looking for a particular sign and didn't get it? It's very common. Perhaps His message was a calming and stabilizing one, rather than a winning-lottery-ticket one.

PM me absolutely anytime and we can discuss it, if you'd like.

question_it_all · 07-16-2008, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowTrainComing

They're not "my opinions." They're factual. As I've said umpteen times in this thread alone, humble yourself and ask God.

Or, wallow in our embarrassingly incomplete humanism and convince yourself that we're super-duper. Entirely your choice.

They're factual? Really? Then as I've said umpteen times in this thread, show us a credible argument other than "believe so you can believe", or "believe because I experience delusions whilst praying".

I won't ask you to wallow in your embarrassingly deluded view of reality as you seem quite content there. I will humbly ask the Tooth Fairy for guidance as I'm not super-duper enough for that, but my imaginary friend is :jump:

Incoherent fool · 07-16-2008, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowTrainComing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incoherent fool

I did. He didn't. When I was a Christian, I was desperate for a sign. The fact that I never received one is just one

How do you "know" that? Were you looking for a particular sign and didn't get it? It's very common. Perhaps His message was a calming and stabilizing one, rather than a winning-lottery-ticket one.

I wasn't looking for a particular sign. I was looking for anything that couldn't be explained by a naturalistic world view, and I found nothing. Should I have abandoned reason and embraced a sign from God, even if it wouldn't have made sense to the brain that God gave me? If so, could I have misinterpreted something as a sign from God when really it wasn't? Could you?

If God is sending people messages, why are they so vague or subtle that they can be misinterpreted as everyday events? Do you think people should be sent to hell for this?

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PM me absolutely anytime and we can discuss it, if you'd like.

No thanks. Based on your comments in this thread, I have a pretty good idea of what you'll probably say.

-Jay- · 07-16-2008, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowTrainComing

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinJay

Do you have anything to offer to support a position that it's anything other than an old, non-magical book?

I absolutely do. The Holy Spirit's conviction provides and confirms the beliefs held within the Book.

To quote you: "Says you. That doesn't make it true." I can't help but notice that this statement applies quite well to most of your comments here.

What does this mean, STC? It's likely that your understanding of the Holy Spirit comes from the Bible, and then you're using the understanding of this thing that you learned about from the Bible to turn around and confirm the Bible. This is, at the very least, circular. It's not very convincing, either.

Now, I posed several questions to you most of which you ignored:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

The term "accepting Christ as Savior" suggests that you are a Christian of a conservative stripe, as do comments such as the one you made here. If that is correct, it in turn suggests that you hold certain views on the Bible, including its verbal plenary inspiration. Are these suggestions correct?

That said, I made two assertions about the Bible - that it's just an old book (technically, I should have said that it's a collection of old books) and that there is nothing magical about it. Which one are you objecting to? Do you have anything to offer to support a position that it's anything other than an old, non-magical book? Please be prepared to explain why your information is more credible than that of the many scholars working in the field today whose work supports the position that the books of the Bible are human works with many errors, inconsistencies, and contradictions.

The part in bold is the significant part, and it's the part that you must address if you have any expectation that your claims will be taken as anything more than assertions born out of magical thinking and confirmation bias.

regards,

NinJay

SlowTrainComing · 07-16-2008, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incoherent fool

If God is sending people messages, why are they so vague or subtle that they can be misinterpreted as everyday events? Do you think people should be sent to hell for this?

Well, by asking me that, you're equating our standards for fairness and justice with God's.

SlowTrainComing · 07-16-2008, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinJay

Do you have anything to offer to support a position that it's anything other than an old, non-magical book? Please be prepared to explain why your information is more credible than that of the many scholars working in the field today whose work supports the position that the books of the Bible are human works with many errors, inconsistencies, and contradictions.

Speak to someone grounded strongly in the Bible. It's commonplace to look superficially at the Book and complain about "contradictions."

As I've said, however, this must be done with an open mind toward Christ or it's absolutely no good. Taking into it a mindset of "I'll still refuse to buy any of this" will kill its productivity.

Tom Sawyer · 07-16-2008, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowTrainComing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incoherent fool

If God is sending people messages, why are they so vague or subtle that they can be misinterpreted as everyday events? Do you think people should be sent to hell for this?

Well, by asking me that, you're equating our standards for fairness and justice with God's.

What makes God a better judge of these than Incoherent fool or you or me?

SlowTrainComing · 07-16-2008, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

What makes God a better judge of these than Incoherent fool or you or me?

His infallibility.

Deus Ex · 07-16-2008, 08:10 AM

I simply cannot believe the Gospel stories with any amount of certainty. I do not reject God (if he/she/it exists).

The Christian God asks us to believe in him based off of old stories from a book. The only evidence we get is nothing. We must believe on faith. If I am God's creation, then it is God who gave me my reason, and my reason is incompatible with faith.

If my lack of certainty in the veracity of Biblical claims is enough to send me to Hell, then i guess there is nothing that I can do about it.

I could pretend to believe the Gospels(to appease God), but I would be lying to myself.

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07-16-2008, 08:10 AM	#50
Deus Ex Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,348	I simply cannot believe the Gospel stories with any amount of certainty. I do not reject God (if he/she/it exists). The Christian God asks us to believe in him based off of old stories from a book. The only evidence we get is nothing. We must believe on faith. If I am God's creation, then it is God who gave me my reason, and my reason is incompatible with faith. If my lack of certainty in the veracity of Biblical claims is enough to send me to Hell, then i guess there is nothing that I can do about it. I could pretend to believe the Gospels(to appease God), but I would be lying to myself.

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