TightSight

The more people who find an idea correct the more a given individual will believe the idea to be correct.

There is a big event on the horizon, an appocolypse, an alien landing, or lets say a ressurection. The time comes and goes, nothing happens. Well now you have a group of people (however large or small) who have invested so much in this belief of theirs that it would nearly impossible to go back, and much easier to keep believing. However the failed prophecy (whatever it might be) is still lingering in their minds, how can you make up for this bit of uncertainty? By successfully convincing others of the same belief. If others can come to believe the idea it has to be true.

This effect was well documented when in 1964 scientists from the University of Minnesota infiltrated a doomsday cult based in Chicago. The cult predicted the end of the world and their own rescue by aliens called "gaurdians". The night came, and surpise, no aliens. The end of the cult? Hardly, they went from secretive (before the supposed armageddon) to quite zealous in the promotion of their beliefs.

Chris Weimer

One must also bear in mind that early Christians were Jews, and ALL Jews messianic Jewish sects were persecuted. Does that mean that all of them were correct?

DMB

Apart from Josephus, where I understand most biblical scholars accept that the only reference to Jesus was a later, christian, interpolation, AFAIK there is no independent or contemporary documentation of Jesus. This doesn't, of course, mean that Jesus couldn't have existed, but that he didn't have the impact on the Romans that the bible would suggest. Which Jewish or Roman documentation do you have in mind?

The gospels were not written by the disciples, so we don't know for sure what sort of story they would have told.

All your quotations are from one source: the bible. Since the NT was written with the knowledge of the OT, it was open to the writers of the gospels to shove in all sorts of quotations from the OT and possibly distort their meaning to fit their agenda. They don't even have to have been deliberate fraudsters to do this. If you believe something very strongly, it is only too easy to convince yourself that everything is evidence for your belief and that, for example, the words of a psalm would have been on Jesus's lips when he was on the cross. You really ought to ask a few Jews how they interpret the quotations from the OT and whether they think them prophetic of a Jesus who was also the son of god.

I would also suggest that you take your claims to the Biblical Criticism and History Forum above. You will find more people there who are biblical scholars.

Assuming that a real Jesus existed, we don't have to be convinced that he was a fraud in order to find a lot of the claims in the NT dodgy.

TySixtus

Nazareth didn't exist at the time- one more reason to believe he didn't exist as people say he did. He could've been a NASARANI (Little Fishes) Essene, I believe. The evidence points in that direction. Owing to the OT prophecy that "He will be called a Nazorean".

Ty

Hyndis

Ehh. That just goes to show how little I bother to learn about uninteresting mythology. Still, the point stands. "Jesus" was a rather common name back then, and carpentry was a common trade. So I wouldn't be surprised if some guy with that name and trade existed. Or, many guys with that name and trade. So I'll grant that a Jesus existed, but still, thats a far cry from the magical Jesus having existed.

penumbra

I've heard that before, Ty. Something to the effect that there is no evidence of a city or village or area by that name during the period in question. But I've been reluctant to bring it up in discussions with xian's because I haven't been able to locate much in the way of definitive or authoritative evidence. You got any references or links I can look at?

TySixtus

I agree wholeheartedly with that. Jesus was a common name, and carpenter was a common job. I think he existed, for the record, but not in a way as to make him recognizable to what 99% of the world thinks that guy is/was. So, the actual Jesus is so far removed from the real one as to make them both meaningless to each other.

Ty

TySixtus

Yeah. The Hiram Key. A great book, you can find it on Amazon. It starts out looking at Freemasonry (the two authors are Freemasons, so it's not a 'conspiracy' book) and they get heavily into early Christian history. They also mention the 'two Jesus' theory. They guy that they let go instead of Jesus was Barabbas- literally meaning Son of the Father (Bar Abba). Infact, in older manuscripts, he's mentioned as Jesus Barabbas. Was one the 'Priestly Jesus' and the other 'Kingly Jesus', in line with traditional Jewish ruling principle of Priest and King? Hmmmm...

Vorkosigan

Move this to BC&H??

penumbra

Thanks for the reference, I'll check it out.