Freethought & Rationalism Archive

maryhelena · 05-08-2009, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Agreed, but that does not stop some of us trying to dig around a bit to see if there is anything that can be discovered.....

Why no readily available evidence for things that we might question? One answer could be that we are, as a species, able to ask questions regarding our existence - many questions, few answers - but - searching for those elusive answers does keep our brains well oiled - hence, in the long run, keeps our species on its evolutionary track.

Makes me think of that song about "'will the last word ever spoken be 'why'". As long as questions are asked - someone, somewhere, will find the question so intriguing that they will spend themselves in searching for the answer....

I think one of the problems is that we are not apt to ask WHY when the answer might upset the lifestyle we have grown accustomed to... we aren't apt to ask why when the answer might force us to change.

Indeed, I'm with you on that. So many people are just content with what they have and don't want, or see the need, to change. But there has always been people prepared to rock the boat - which is what Rachel Elior is doing right now! The implications, if her views on Josephus are correct, for understanding the early beginnings of Christianity are just enormous ......so she is going to be in for a lot of criticism.....

kcdad · 05-08-2009, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

I think one of the problems is that we are not apt to ask WHY when the answer might upset the lifestyle we have grown accustomed to... we aren't apt to ask why when the answer might force us to change.

Indeed, I'm with you on that. So many people are just content with what they have and don't want, or see the need, to change. But there has always been people prepared to rock the boat - which is what Rachel Elior is doing right now! The implications, if her views on Josephus are correct, for understanding the early beginnings of Christianity are just enormous ......so she is going to be in for a lot of criticism.....

You have a good point, but you might want to consider another motive to discredit the entire Christian movement...

There is strong movement within Christianity (specifically The Jesus Seminar people) to bring the social justice aspect of Jesus teachings back to prominence and that is direct attack against Capitalism. Discredit Josephus and The Essenes and you discredit communism and the way of life for the early followers of Jesus and Paul.

Toto · 05-08-2009, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Indeed, without Josephus there is no 'historical' evidence for Jesus of Nazareth, James or John the Baptist.

True. Just as there is no historical evidence of the origin of our planet or historical evidence of Native Americans coming to the New World, or Historical evidence of the building of Jericho, the first city, no historical evidence of all of what we commonly accept as history... why is that do you wonder?

There is archeological and scientific evidence of most of those events. If there is no "historical" evidence, it must be because of your definition of "historical," and the fact that these happened in pre-literate societies.

For Jesus - still nothing.

bacht · 05-08-2009, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

You have a good point, but you might want to consider another motive to discredit the entire Christian movement...

There is strong movement within Christianity (specifically The Jesus Seminar people) to bring the social justice aspect of Jesus teachings back to prominence and that is direct attack against Capitalism. Discredit Josephus and The Essenes and you discredit communism and the way of life for the early followers of Jesus and Paul.

It's nice that you want to rescue Christianity from discredit, but how does this relate to the academic/scientific exploration of ancient Jewish and Christian history? If you're interested in primitive Jewish or Xtian "communism" I would note that these people were awaiting their messiah's coming and the end of the old order immediately after. It wasn't supposed to be a permanent arrangement.

I think your equation of social justice with socialism is too simplistic, but that kind of discussion probably belongs in another sub-forum.

Toto · 05-08-2009, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

. . .

You have a good point, but you might want to consider another motive to discredit the entire Christian movement...

There is strong movement within Christianity (specifically The Jesus Seminar people) to bring the social justice aspect of Jesus teachings back to prominence and that is direct attack against Capitalism. Discredit Josephus and The Essenes and you discredit communism and the way of life for the early followers of Jesus and Paul.

This is as bizarre as any conspiracy theory. The Jesus Seminar is not a strong movement - it was an academic seminar with some support among liberal Christians. It was specifically designed to oppose fundamentalism, but otherwise took no position on capitalism.

Communism has done an adequate job discrediting itself, and the remaining social justice proponents do not need to show the existence of the Essenes, who were not early followers of Jesus and/or Paul in any case.

kcdad · 05-08-2009, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There is archeological and scientific evidence of most of those events. If there is no "historical" evidence, it must be because of your definition of "historical," and the fact that these happened in pre-literate societies.

For Jesus - still nothing.

Is there another definition of "historical" other than written?

Toto · 05-08-2009, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There is archeological and scientific evidence of most of those events. If there is no "historical" evidence, it must be because of your definition of "historical," and the fact that these happened in pre-literate societies.

For Jesus - still nothing.

Is there another definition of "historical" other than written?

I think most people would think of archeology and scientific / forensic investigation as sources for history, probably better sources than written documents. Otherwise you just have literary analysis.

kcdad · 05-08-2009, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

. . .

You have a good point, but you might want to consider another motive to discredit the entire Christian movement...

There is strong movement within Christianity (specifically The Jesus Seminar people) to bring the social justice aspect of Jesus teachings back to prominence and that is direct attack against Capitalism. Discredit Josephus and The Essenes and you discredit communism and the way of life for the early followers of Jesus and Paul.

This is as bizarre as any conspiracy theory. The Jesus Seminar is not a strong movement - it was an academic seminar with some support among liberal Christians. It was specifically designed to oppose fundamentalism, but otherwise took no position on capitalism.

Communism has done an adequate job discrediting itself, and the remaining social justice proponents do not need to show the existence of the Essenes, who were not early followers of Jesus and/or Paul in any case.

Well done!

You pronounced the mantra perfectly. good little worker bee

It took no position on capitalism except to point out that the early christian communities were communist per the teachings of Jesus

kcdad · 05-08-2009, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Is there another definition of "historical" other than written?

I think most people would think of archeology and scientific / forensic investigation as sources for history, probably better sources than written documents. Otherwise you just have literary analysis.

Really? How many is most?

So you find a pot or a tool or grave... what do you make of it without some record?

maryhelena · 05-08-2009, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Indeed, I'm with you on that. So many people are just content with what they have and don't want, or see the need, to change. But there has always been people prepared to rock the boat - which is what Rachel Elior is doing right now! The implications, if her views on Josephus are correct, for understanding the early beginnings of Christianity are just enormous ......so she is going to be in for a lot of criticism.....

You have a good point, but you might want to consider another motive to discredit the entire Christian movement...

There is strong movement within Christianity (specifically The Jesus Seminar people) to bring the social justice aspect of Jesus teachings back to prominence and that is direct attack against Capitalism. Discredit Josephus and The Essenes and you discredit communism and the way of life for the early followers of Jesus and Paul.

I'm all for social justice.....

However, until we can get a handle on how exactly early Christianity came about, any discussion on social justice from a Christian perspective is really and truly nothing but speculation....

And no, I am not trying to discredit Josephus at all - just trying to understand what he has been up to.....

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