Rathpig

Because I am sure no one is tired of "Islam-Bashing", I submit:

Bid'a: a heresy directly related to innovation in ibaddah (the religion, or more precisely the worship).

Islamic Source

In trying to understand Islamic issues I thought it best to study what those who believe the religion said about the religion. It is only fair to examine these sources first since any criticism of Islam would have to stem from within the religion itself to be valid. This is the same approach I take with any philosophical system. I wouldn't go to the Existentialist for an explanation of Empiricism. What Islam says about itself is enough to understand Islam. You make up your own minds.

Bid'a is important to the current world situation because so frequently we are told by our political leaders and news media that certain "radical" elements are not part of Islam. We are asked to understand that most Muslims are "moderate". We have been told we are at war with these "extremist" factions who misuse Islam for their nefarious purposes while the majority of Muslims are different.

I have read of a form of Islam that has evolved. Though rarely used, the word "reformed" is strongly connoted. We shouldn't confuse the more modern "peaceful" (Westernized?) version of the religion with the "conservative" radicalized minority that seems to garner the media attention.

"Ok", I said. To my Western mind this made for a perfect explanation. I am familiar with the radical anti-abortion/anti-homosexual Christian groups who seemingly twist an otherwise modern religion to their own ends. I knew I couldn't cast a broad dispersion of Eric Rudolph's violent hatred on every Christian. So off I go to my studies.

I looked for the "moderate" Muslim on television. The few "moderate" Muslims I heard speak left me more confused. I remember after the Rudolph bombings how every Christian "leader" I heard speak in public said unequivocally these actions were "wrong". No hairs were split. Even though philosophically they didn't agree on the issue of abortion, the "conservative" Christian community (with only a very few exceptions) made a stand with the victims.

When I heard the "moderate" Muslim speak on television after September 11, 2001, I heard phrases such as, "You need to understand....", "Western aggression in the Middle East means...", "If only the West would...", "You must understand we are a religion of peace, but...".

I looked for the phrase, "Osama bin Laden was wrong". I looked for some of these "moderate" representatives of Islam to say, "The God I worship is not the God of the terrorists". I didn't hear definative declarations of the wrongness of the action. I heard excuses. I heard statements that seemed to contradict my observations.

Where is this "moderate" peace-loving Muslim? Somethings could be blamed on my cultural misunderstandings, but not everything. All religion is at it's foundation a judgement of human behavior. If it is not, then what would be the point of having a religion. If judgements of morality, right and wrong, are not being made, why codify a system of beliefs. I knew the Muslims on television could and would make value judgements against "The West" and "America". Why not against Osama?

Where was this "moderate"?

Well I started to look in Islam. I knew the religion had a very violent past. The History of the Middle East since the 7th century is the history of violence in the name of Allah. But, things have changed I had been told. The new Islam wasn't like the old Islam. The new Islam had evolved much like Christianity. Both religions had violent and repressive pasts, but not now.

I went looking for the moderate modern Muslim, and I found Bid'a


If anyone has made it this far with me, Thank You for your time.

Rathpig

Neutral

i did

Clivedurdle

Is it possible to argue that wahabism is a bida, an innovation and therefore heretical?

Was the promulgation of the concept of bida an innovation and therefore heretical?

Clivedurdle

Looking at the link, if I say "Three" (Trinity) to a Muslim am I being offensive?

If so


THREE THREE THREE!

(Snag is the catholics have made Mary the mother of God so it is now FOUR!)(Talk about bida or innovation!)

(As far as I see this is a worse offence than a few cartoons, shall we start an offend a religion thread?)

It looks as if it is very difficult not to offend a muslim! I therefore recommend none of you leave islamic lands and those that have return! We are obviously beyond redemption, so don't waste your time!

TheArabianHunter

Only recently the dust of war settled in europe. Why Americans still have troops in Germany. you also seem to have forgotten the bosnian war, and the rape and killing of Chechnians muslims, Iraqies, Palastinians, Afghan and crimes against muslims all over the world. You talk like other religions being angles.

Who raised wahhabist to power to commit their crimes against humanity in Saudi Arabia? All what this tells me that you have very narrow knowledge, you don't even know which groups use this Bedda "thing" how it is used, by whom it is used and against whom it is used.

notme

Muslims are at war everywhere they rub shoulders with another religion -- Nigeria, Chechenya, Cashmir, Israel. In the mosques across Europe, they teach hatred for the West, so in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

Avatar

Is it too much to stick to discussion about the OP and not modern politics? All religions have violent pasts...all have had periods when they have been absolutely drenched in innocent blood. We seem to be going through one now.

Back to the OP anyone?

Rathpig

The conversation seems to always become the past actions of the Jew or Christian when you begin to discuss Islam. I could easily dismiss the past actions of the Muslim if the present actions were not so destructive. But it is beyond comprehension for the Muslim to dismiss the past sins of the Jew or Christian.

All religions have innocent blood on their hands which is why I feel compelled to speak out so strongly against the single world religion which has warned me that there will be future innocent blood spilled: Islam.

Neutral

Hi Rathpig

I can fill this forum with every kind of shit about America and Americans starting from the day your ancestors landed there to this moment but I consider this childish behavior and will lead us to nowhere, let us be mature and inject some data and statistics into our discussion.

America today has about 5 million Arabs and Muslims on its soil, I want you to show me from the data of your own government how many Muslims in America got involved in violent crimes in America ( murder,armed robbery, rape, child molestation, domestic violence, random shooting at a school or work place, car chase, etc ) and compare those numbers to the other ethnic and religious groups ( white black Hispanic ….. whatever ). I think this is a fair request and can give us a clue about who is the ultimate motherfucker In this world.

premjan

I wonder if the whole issue of heresy and blasphemy comes from a rather primitive fascination with the written word and concepts wherein some of these prophets were probably illiterate and hence thought the written word a little too important.