Stacey Melissa

So you meant to say it is factually correct to say "There are 2 generations between me and my great-great-great-great-grandfather"?

Mental gymnastics should be an Olympic sport.

I don't make any assumption that the author of Matthew would've done such a thing on purpose. I think the contradiction probably came from an early, common, innocent scribal error.

Actually, Jewish readers have done exactly that. In fact, they point to several reasons why Jesus is not the Messiah. Nothing says Christians had to actually listen to their Jewish critics, though, and apparently, they didn't.

Not that I'm suggesting the earliest Christians would have come up against much scholarly Jewish opposition. Early Christianity was small and fledgling. It easily flew under the radar. Jews at the time would've put about as much effort into debunking Christianity as you put into debunking Zoroastrianism.

As for the possibility of early Christians verifying the lineage they trusted in... Why would they bother, when Paul had already primed them with lines like 1 Timothy 1:3-4? - "I urge you, as I did when I was on my way to Macedonia, to remain in Ephesus so that you may instruct certain people not to teach any different doctrine, and not to occupy themselves with myths and endless genealogies that promote speculations rather than the divine training that is known by faith."

aa5874

Stacey, whatever is in the book of Matthew must be regarded as deliberate. The Christian Bible claims to be the divinely inspired, inerrant word of the Christian Gods. This book is claimed to be the book of all books, any errors, contradictions and inconsistencies must be noted and inquired upon.

The genealogies written in Matthew, Chronicles and Luke are hopelessly contradictory, this put the divine inspiration and inerrancy into question. Now, as a reader of the Christian Bible, I cannot link Joseph, the supposed father of Jesus, to King David. The genealogies mentioned do not make sense, the entire Christian Bible is irreconcilable.

A simple genealogy of the Almighty's parents have been entirely screwed up. This was done deliberately and the Gods have done nothing. Were it not for the investigative skills of the atheist, another man-made deception would have flourished to the peril of Mankind.

Chris Weimer

It does? Where?

aa5874

From the book called Revelation, 22:18-19, KJV, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Stacey Melissa

I'm pretty sure that's just telling people not to fuck around with the text of Revelation. It would sure suck to be a scribe in charge of making a copy of Revelation, with those all those curses hanging over your head if you make just one little mistake.

Chris Weimer

What Stacey Melissa said. It clearly is talking about Revelation itself, and not the entire Bible.

aa5874

But without the original Revelation, how do we know if anything was added or taken away? I think understand, after you copy the original, you burn it, that way nobody knows what was done.

So Chris, I can add or take away from the other books of the Christian Bible? I didn't know that. Well in that case, I'll take away all the other books except Revelation because that book (revelation) is useless anyway.

Going back to 1Chronicles 3, I see another serious problem that has been overlooked, the genealogy mentions the name Zerubbabel in 1 Chron 3:19-24 , and the name Zorobabel appears in Matthew1 :13-16. These Zorobabel's immediate and future generations are completely different, there is no compatabilty whatsoever.
Of interest, it should also be noted that Luke 3 :23-27 also mentions the name Zorobabel and his immediate and future generations are not compatible with Matthew or Chronicles.

We now have three genealogies recorded in the Christian Bible that are hopelessly incompatible, I have concluded that Joseph, the supposed father of the so called Jesus, is an invention of the Humand mind and likewise the Amighty and His Son.

Angrillori

That's a pretty non-compelling argument though.

"They must have X"
"They would surely have X"
"Certainly X"

That's just not good enough to hang a hat on.

The question is WHY they missed it. We can't just assume inerrancy on the assertion that "surely this would not have been done."

mikem

Very deliberate, in fact. This genealogy is a carefully crafted piece of work. The whole of the genealogy is framed by verses 1 and 17. In verse 1, you have Jesus - David - Abraham. In verse 17, that is reversed, Abraham- David - Christ. Matthew is clearly indicating that there is a link between these three figures. He uses the genealogy to ground that link in history. The link is in fact, salvation history, and that is the real subject matter of these verses,

Abraham is significant, as the father of the Chosen Race, and the one to whom God promised the land. David is significant, as he closes that era of history which had been opened by Abraham, and opens a new era, "an age of kings," as the second division of the genealogy might be called. He is referred to in 1:6 as "the king," and as such he is the founder of the dynasty that follows. The Babylonian deportation serves the same purpose in this historical scheme: it is an event of transition that terminates the age of kings and ushers in a new period of Israel's history as Jechoniah is carried into captivity with the Jewish people. This third era which is closed by Jesus the Messiah, might appropriately be designated "a time of exile." Jesus is the one who will deliver "his people" from exile, but an exile understood in spiritual, rather than political terms.

The number 14 is significant because it is the numerical value of David's name in Hebrew DWD, 4 + 6 + 4.

Intriguingly, there are only 13 generations in the third division. Scholars have come up with various arguments why this might be so. One that reoccurs is that Jesus be counted twice - first at his birth, and then again with his resurrection, when the "final age" is inaugerated - (see Mathew 28:20).

The incomplete number of generations in the third section of the genealogy is deliberate and is clarified by the origin and significance of the number fourteen which, according to verse 17, is the basis of the author's schematization of Israel's history. The best clues are provided by the Messiah Apocalypse of 2 Baruch 53-74, with its pattern of fourteen or twelve plus two, matching the apolocalyptist's organization and interpretation of Israel's history. (Herman C. Waetjen, “The Origin of Jesus Christ: Matthew 1:1-25”, The Christian Century (May 20-27 1998): 524-53, reproduced on Religion-Online. (New URL )

The pattern which this visionary sees in the history of Israel is analogous to an enormous cloud that has emerged from "a very great sea . . . full of waters white and black" (53:1). This happens 12 times. The writer goes on to give 12 incidents from the Old Testament history that characterise the spiritual history of the Chosen people in their relationship to God. However, following the 12 incidents there are two further events, a final rainfall, and then a lightning flash heralding the coming of the Messiah, at which time history will be complete. So there are 14 events in all, but Baruch says at the outset that there are 12.

This is analogous to what Matthew does in the third part of his genealogy. 12generations to Jesus, Jesus himself the 13th and the 14th.

In light of the above, Matthew's purpose is not primarily to produce a family tree. It is to make a theological statment, and that is to say that Jesus is the final stage in salvation history, which began with the calling of Abraham, the establishment of the Chosen people from whom the Messiah would come. In Matthew's view, David was significant as being the type of the Messiah. As David was chosen to be King by God, so Jesus was chosen to be King of God's kingdom.

On the issue of inerrancy. Not all Christians believe that absolute factual accuracy is a corollary of the Bible being the "Word of God". The Bible does not claim inerrancy for it's own writings. It claims no more than inspiration. Mainstream Christian churches recognize that the Bible was produced within cultures very different from our own, and that the Bible contains many different genres, and that the writings have a history of development. Mathew appears to be utilising, and adapting to his own ends, a genre that would have been familiar to the Jewish audience for which he was writing.

Stacey Melissa

You guys may think the author of Matthew deliberately messed with the genealogy, but I think we just have a case of scribal sloppiness on our hands. He gives no indication whatsoever that he's trying to make some bullshit numerological point; readers have just read that into it in order to twist the story enough to fit the facts.