Chili

Well I'd say again that out of [...] Magdalena's concoctions rises the idea that it was not a fig tree. Fig trees are local in Eden but not apple trees in the sense that apples are 'juicy fruits' lol, and much more tempting to satisfy our thirst (tanha) 'for' life -- for which the precondition is that we 'have' no life.

The fig tree is the tree of Life under which Nathanael was found as the "true Israelite, . . . the son of God" (John 1:17-). The fig tree is 'ancient' and the apple tree is just of 'this generation' as the subconscious mind is opposite to the conscious mind in that same concept. Not all subconscious minds bare fruit and that is why Jesus uprooted and cursed the one that did not . . . to say that the unexamined life is not worth living.

Toto

Certain comments that wandered too far off topic have been split off here.

Chili

The point here is not to call other's 'no-lifers' but to say that our banishment from Eden is good so we may have a thirst for life. This makes the apple tree perfect as a stranger in a foreign land.

DerekSansone

This is my take on the Garden story...I wrote it during my deconversion, so some of my points on "reason" have been modified since, but for all practical purposes, I think you'll get the points...

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

How can you rule over something without these something’s having the ability to crawl and eat. Now if these something’s are eating they are choosing. They have ability to decide and that would come from a past knowledge or an inner hunger from internal forces of nature. Prior to the fall…

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

But we have “in our image�. I have to only guess what God’s image means and we don’t see any reason to assume that God gave them intellect because intellect comes from observing effects from nature. That would require years of trial and error and if you were created mature, as we are told they were, then this logically fails because you can’t just pop in a new program in your brain that gives you automatic knowledge. They had no community to learn from…

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

Again, we see that the social climate was active. They are told to ‘be fruitful and increase the numbers’, this would require the ability to choose based on your desires. But desire comes from experiences in observing effects and this would not be possible without a community to observe. And they still don’t know good and evil yet…There were in paradise and their eyes did not see such contrasts.

29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has the breath of life in it-I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

Ok, here we go again with man and woman choosing food. This required the ability to reason. A desire to eat came from inner human demand. But choosing which fruit would require thought and conflict analysis. Just a simple apple would demand that they look at the apple and contemplate whether or not to bite it. This would have required a choice, and that comes from a desire to or not to bite based on past experiences of biting small-unknown round things, or seeing someone else bite small-unknown round things. This would be impossible at their mental capacity. Anything they did would be just random out of human sentient and that would require NO prejudice or memory. Like a baby holding on to a stick of dynamite just because it is using it’s hands to grasp objects. The mechanics are just human inner forces working out.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning-the sixth day.

Adam and Eve
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.

When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- 7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Breath of life, doesn’t mean “automatic socially constructed capacity to reason.�

8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground-trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Pleasing to eat for food…This would also require choice and would mean their was contrast and varieties. Well, when you have multiple choices of foods, you are choosing based on desires right? If I go to the Porsche dealership and I see one black Porsche and one red Porsche, I have to choose. Both are very desirable, but I have to choose one. So, this choice is going to be based on past knowledge and will be made according to my liking.

But, since evil and good cannot exist separated from each other, and are subjected to our preferences and personal definitions of pleasure and pain, to make a choice for food only reinforces the position of knowing and contemplating. This they would not be capable of doing yet. It says they do, but that would be impossible considering the backdrop and lack of social influences.

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Ok, let’s look at this “die� thing. What would happen if Adam was talking care of the garden and he cut his wrist on a piece of gagged wood and started bleeding? If he kept bleeding would he have died as a result of loosing too much blood?

We know that death means separation from God right? But see, God already knew Adam was going to eat the fruit and this would not have been fair to Adam because the tree was impossible to escape. Maybe if God kept silent Adam would never had even see the two trees in the first place. God points it out then plays a game with a creature with no ability to reason…That’s the set up of all set ups…

Adam and Eve had no freedom, because freedom is non-existent to begin with, and they didn’t even have knowledge from a childhood or social construct that would have applied them with a capability to avoid the persuasion.

D

Clivedurdle

I think this and other similar comments are unfair and unjustified.

Chilli, I think I see you making allusions to the fact that there are two separate creation stories in Genesis that are not actually related, and different terms - God and Lord God are used.

I also see allusions to Jungian thinking and existentialism.

May I recommend "Women who run with wolves" as an interesting introduction to how our rational and unconscious or subconscious or souls or spirits work together?

Laing also looked at these ideas, Chilli, I like what you are attempting, to express how and why we have these myths and dreams!

Chili

Good, thanks and I will visit our local library this winter.

Very distinct, God and Lord God wherein God created and Lord God formed . . . but I like Gen 3 best of all.

Tangent

The creator god is a jealous and angry god. He is not the true God, but rather one either tasked with creation or he created creation in rebellion. His arrogance in saying he is the highest and "thou shall have no other gods" is him rebelling against the true spirit. Time and time again he punishes people for not feeding his ego. When the angels come and teach man technology, he punishes them with a flood. Jesus comes teaching of the true spirit. God is love. The snake (a common symbol of divine wisdom) sets us free and catches the blind god in his arrogance, lies and unknowingness. Even if you believe the creator god of Genesis is "god" it still stands that the snake was telling the truth and God lied. From my experience, Genesis is one of the most difficult book of the bible for 'christians' to study. Most have a Sunday school version that they stick to, but the true text is rather provocative.

Creation exists as an attempted seperation from spirit. Jesus taught not to fear those who can only harm your body, and not your soul.


So in response to OP, no I wouldn't say it was fair to set them up like that.

As for the other posts and tangents... When a child drops an ice cream cone, he feels very upset and cries. His whole world is over. His parents and others who are more understanding know this is a small thing and not important, trying to comfort the child to no avail. Until the child experiences and understands the concept, it is pointless. During our time here, we drop many ice cream cones and even kill each other over them. A few have come to try and comfort us, but we tend to kill them too.

Namaste

Clivedurdle

Welcome tangent - aren't you quoting the Albigensian heresy or whatever it is called? Lot of people died in Southern France because of this about the twelth century!