Doug Shaver

I think it is a crock of superstitious nonsense, to put it charitably.

Half-Life

I would really like Diogenes the Cynic to post here. In the other hell thread he said hell is not eternal. He uses original translation to prove this. But in the one I posted he uses the Greek words to prove it is eternal. Can Diogenes explain?

Diogenes the Cynic

My position is not that "hell is not eternal," but that hell is not in the Bible. The argument over aionios is really moot since it is never used to refer to torment. In pint of fact, aionios doesn't mean "eternal." It is an adjectival form of a word which means "age" or "era." "Age-y" would be an approximate literal translation but "age-lasting" or "enduring" would be better English. As it pertains to the discussion of "hell" in the Bible, I don't think it's especially relevant. Even if every instance of aionios is translated as "eternal," it still never gets applied to a place or condition of torment.

John A. Broussard

Giggle if you want, but Half-Life is in the American mainstream. About half of the adult U.S. population thinks the sun revolves around the earth or don't know whether or not it does.

As for hell being underfoot, how do you explain those volcanoes that spout fire and smell of brimstone?

cgordon

In a nutshell: It's bullshite.

More thoroughly, the whole concept of heaven and hell is basically a carefully crafted (honed and revamped over several centuries) mindf*ck designed to control believers. By playing upon the fears and insecurities of believers, the leaders of the faithful can assure themselves of devoted, albeit gullible, followers.

In harping upon the mythological aspects of salvation, heaven, hell and damnation, evangelical Christians are failing to actually present the messages that could mean the difference in a Dark Ages perspective and one that could actually usher the faith into the 20th century, that could prove the worth of the religion rather than making it a laughing stock of all rational people.

YMMV.

John A. Broussard

You're oversimplifying.

Granted that many of the leaders are frauds, the majority of them--and the most effective ones, by the way--have convinced themselves that what they are selling is genuine.

Clivedurdle

The Second Coming will follow the super volcano at yellowstone erupting! And what will all our nuclear waste do to those poor souls if we start putting it in subduction zones!

Pray harder!

(Will any televangelists pay me for sermons,,?)

Huxley

This is what I have learned at one time from studying the Bible. I have concluded that if the Bible is correct, after we die, since those of us who do not believe in God, or those who no longer believe, such as myself, we just cease to exist and that's it. Here is how I came to that conclusion:

Hell

Hell refers to nothing more than the grave. The word "Hell" appears 31 times in the Old Testament. It comes from the Hebrew word "Sheol". But what is interesting, while Hell only appears 31 times in the Old Testament, the word "Sheol" makes 34 more appearances, 33 times for "grave" and 3 times for "pit". By now you must be asking yourselves "how can 1 Hebrew word have three English word meanings?". It can’t and it doesn’t. What you must understand, and I can’t stress this enough, when the Bible was translated from its original text, it was translated into English 400 years ago. English words have changed their meaning since then and if you don’t study etymology, then you wouldn’t know this.

The word "Hell" 400 years ago does not have the same meaning as it does today for if it did then how could the same Hebrew word "Sheol" be used for hell, grave, and pit. The English word "Hell" or "Helan" simply meant to "cover over" or to "hide". When a roof was put on a house it was called "Helling" and the same term was used for putting vegetables into the cellar. It simply meant covering over or grave.

Giving my above explanation, now we will cover Old Testament scripture using our new found knowledge and you tell me if now the scripture doesn’t have a new clarity. Go to Strong’s concordance and look up the words grave, hell, and pit and you will see Strong’s number 7585 (Sheol) used for all three. Look up those scriptures, read them in context of the chapter, and see if my explanation doesn’t fit in better than what the huckster preachers are telling you. Here are a few verses:

"And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him." -- Genesis 37:35

"And he said, My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in the which ye go, then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave." -- Genesis 42:38

"My father made me swear, saying, Lo, I die: in my grave which I have digged for me in the land of Canaan, there shalt thou bury me. Now therefore let me go up, I pray thee, and bury my father, and I will come again." -- Genesis 50:5

"I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave: I am deprived of the residue of my years." -- Isaiah 38:10

It is interesting to note that the grave is described in some of the verses as such: where the wicked cease from troubling, the weary be at rest, and the dead know not anything. Keep in mind, one more time, that the words grave, pit, and hell come from the same Hebrew word "Sheol".

Hades

Let’s look at the Greek word "Hades". The Greek word Hades means "grave" as any good concordance will tell you but 10 times in the New Testament it translated as "Hell". Do you for a second think that in Acts 2:27,31 that Jesus was going to Hell?

"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." -- Acts 2:27

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption." -- Acts 2:31

Gehenna

Now, let's talk about another word, Gehenna. That word is translated as "Hell" 12 times in the New Testament. Did you know that "Gehena" was an actual geographical location? It was a dump outside of Jerusalem where the poor or sinners and criminals were burned. Actually the fire was there to "purify" the air while the worm infested corpses decayed. There were actual descriptions of this place but I find this one the most interesting:

"And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD." -- Isaiah 66:23

"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." -- Isaiah 66:24

How many of your pastors told you that this was "Gehenna"? How many of your pastors told you that "Gehenna" was translated as "Hell" in the Bible? If I could find this out on my own then how can a pastor who has gone to a seminary not know it? He is either a moron or you are truly sheep being fleeced. I won’t go into this now but the Hebrew text had a similar area called the "Valley of Hinnom":

"And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger." -- 2 Chronicles 33:6

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." -- Matthew 5:22

"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." -- Matthew 5:29

In those 3 above verses the word was "Gehenna" translated into "Hell".

God prohibits torture by fire

At this point I would like to make another point. God’s laws prohibits the torture of people in fire. It is in the book of laws:

"And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD." -- Leviticus 18:21

"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:" -- Jeremiah 19:5

"Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter." -- Jeremiah 19:6

"And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin." -- Jeremiah 32:35

Ask yourself this: How can God find this an abomination and yet still your pastors are telling you otherwise?

Lake of Fire

Let’s now talk about the "Lake of Fire". Revelation is an extremely difficult book to understand. The "Lake of Fire" is where everybody runs to when you destroy all of there other preconceived notions of "Hell". In order for you to understand Revelation, you must realize it takes years of studies and a good understanding of Greek. This is a hard one for me to explain but here it goes. This time I work from back to front. My interpretation of the "Lake of Fire" is this: "Divine heat and light producing a change".

Let’s take a look at Revelation 19:20:

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Now let’s take the confusing words, go back to the Greek text, and put modern day meaning to them and see if we don’t see this verse and the others in a different light. For the sake of expediency and because he says it better than I ever could I would like to quote Charles Pidgeon, "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad [16:228], one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgement need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" - end quote.

Unquenchable fire

Now let’s tackle this "unquenchable fire" or "cannot be quenched fire" false doctrine. We know that in the law of physics nothing can burn forever, not even the sun. Let’s go back to a verse where "unquenchable fire" was used and the fire burned out:

"But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched." -- Jeremiah 17:27

A couple years later the fire did occur:

"And burned the house of the LORD, and the king's house; and all the houses of Jerusalem, and all the houses of the great men, burned he with fire:" -- Jeremiah 52:13

Is Jerusalem burning today? No. It ran out of fuel. A "fire that can not be quenched" or an "unquenchable fire" cannot be put out but will burn itself out when it runs out of fuel or "performs the task it was set to do". Now here is the rub. Your pastors are calling a fire "that cannot be quenched" as an eternal fire and that you will burn for eternity. Another false doctrine! Let’s take a look at another look at the word fire that segues’s from the above:

"For our God is a consuming fire." -- Hebrews 12:29

The basic purpose of this divine fire of God is to cleanse, purify, purge, temper and change. It is to rid of impurities, of filth, of undesirable elements. There is no better way to deal with filth than to deal with it by fire.

I know that what I have just covered here may be hard to understand and may not be as coherent as the rest of this piece. I am still in my infancy as far as my knowledge of the Book of Revelation is concerned. There is much more that you need to know before even delving into the nature of this book. You cannot just simply look at a verse and use your limited knowledge of history, etymology, and the other 51 scriptures and think you know what it means. The other 51 scriptures alone must be completely understood before tackling Revelation.

Now you will probably say, "okay Huxley, let’s say I believe everything up to now, if the sin filled soul does not go to hell after death then where does it go?" I know, I know everybody is thinking to themselves "what a softball question" for I would assume that we all know that the soul goes nowhere upon death. Not Heaven or Hell. The scripture penalty for sin is "death" is through out the Bible, here are some:

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." -- Ezekiel 18:4

So, if the soul that sinneth shall die, how can it be tortured in the Lake of Fire for all eternity?

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." -- Romans 6:23

Since the penalty of sin is death and since we all are sinners then we all will die and go to our grave. We all know that Christ died for our sins so that we will not have everlasting death (grave). He died for our sins so that we would not have everlasting death.

Immediate Heaven or Hell: false doctrine

In the Catholic and Protestant church’s you are taught that you will immediately go to heaven when you die. Straight to the point that teaching is Pagan and how it infiltrated into the Christian faith is beyond me. The following verses are self explanatory:

"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." -- Acts 2:29

"Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;" -- Acts 2:30

"These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep." -- John 11:11

"Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well." -- John 11:12

"Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep." -- John 11:13

"Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead." -- John 11:14

"For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:" -- 1 Corinthians 15:16

"And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins." -- 1 Corinthians 15:17

"Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished." -- 1 Corinthians 15:18

Did not Christ say this?

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice," -- John 5:28

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." -- John 5:29

"What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah." -- Psalms 89:48

So, you see here that upon death we go to the grave and later we will be judged, yet still you have some church’s saying that you immediately go to Heaven or Hell. You know what? That is what they must believe because instead of just praying unto God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit they also pray to Mary and the Saints. How foolish to think those in their grave and who have not yet been judged can hear and answer your prayers. Those who have been saved and are judged will have everlasting life, and those who are not saved will be judged and have everlasting death.

Heaven is only reserved for God, His Son, and the angels

I guess that since I am on a roll here, I might as well point out another thing. Most Christians have this thought that they will go to Heaven. Another false doctrinal teaching. Here are verses to support this:

"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:" -- Job 19:25

"And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." -- Revelation 5:10

"The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men." -- Psalms 115:16

Nothing in any of those Scripture point, or even hint the possibility that if we are saved through Jesus Christ, that when we die, we will go to Heaven. As a matter of fact, it does say that the "Kingdom of God" will be here on Earth.

Satan

I am about 98% certain that there is no Satan, or opposing super power. Here are some verses you may want to take a look at:

"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else." -- Isaiah 45:6

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." -- Isaiah 45:7

Right here in these two verses God says that he is the Lord, there is none else and that he created evil. In fact God is called Satan in the Bible. There are two parallel verses in the Bible one which God is mentioned and in the other he is called Satan. Here they are:

"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." -- 2 Samuel 24:1

"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." -- 1 Chronicles 21:1

Those who teach that Satan is a fallen angel are faced with a contradiction here, but not in my world. In both verses, God was the adversary of Israel. Satan, in Strong’s Concordance #7854, means "adversary" for that particular entry. Given those circumstances it is easy to see how the translation could occur, but to those people who believe Satan to be a fallen angel are left scratching their heads.

Even an apostle was called "Satan". Does this also mean he was a "Fallen Angel" here is this verse?

"But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." -- Matthew 16:23

In this verse Peter was an opponent to Christ. As I have said before Satan is a Hebrew word for "adversary" Strong’s number 7854. In one verse Satan is "an angel of the Lord":

"And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him." -- Numbers 22:22

This verse God was dealing with Balaam. This was a good angel doing God’s Will, not any "Fallen Angel" that battled against God.

Recently, even the Catholic church has backed off of it's position on Satan. How ironic. Here is a link:

http://www.parascope.com/articles/slips/fs33_1.htm

David B

Hey, Huxley, that was rather interesting.

What you say seems reasonable and plausible, and points to how badly the scriptures might have been misinterpreted by generations of Christians of all sorts of sects over the centuries.

Not that it makes a lot of difference in practical terms, the evidence for any sort of god, let alone one in any sort of middle eastern tradition being so slim.

But still, good argument material

David B

Half-Life

The Greek meaning of aionios ("eternal," "everlasting") is indisputable. It is used many times referring to eternal life in heaven. The same Greek word is also used to refer to eternal punishments (Mt 18:8, 25:41,46, Mk 3:29, 2 Thess 1:9, Heb 6:2, Jude 7). Even in one verse - Mt 25:46 - the word is used twice: once to describe heaven and once for hell. "Eternal punishment" means what it says. There is no way out of this without doing violence to Scripture.

Huxley, what aboiut this part?