Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 12-18-2004, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthtesty

From that it is easier for me to conclude that the jesus myth is a myth and was developed and created for over 60 years, not just finally written down after someone "finally got around to it"

The problem is that myth is real and the message of the myth is that you are not real and therefore you think that myth is not real. So really, it is telling you to take second look at yourself; if you want to, of course.

Rick Sumner · 12-18-2004, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthtesty

Hercules was born of a virgin and a god, lived life to help mankind, was murdered and reserrected to Mt Olympus.

Despite Gakuseidon, Amphitryon never slept with Alcmene before Zeus did, as Alcmene declined him until he avenged the death of her 8 brothers (Graves, _The Greek Myths_, 447; Oxford Dictionary of Classical Myth and Religion, 251). Despite your claim above, there's a considerable difference between the virgin birth and Zeus sleeping with a woman who was previously a virgin (she's not a virgin anymore, Zeus had sex with her, after impersonating Amphitryon). Zeus lay with her one night that was the length of three, after sending Hermes to tell Helios to take the day off. It's a specious comparison at best.

Heracles didn't "live life to help mankind," the labours were imposed upon him by Eurystheus. That they helped was incidental. Later cultic practices associated him as something of a civic protector, which still isn't analogous.

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There is no historical evidence that jesus existed. When reading parts of the bible, supposedly there was great multitudes of people that followed jesus "more than could be counted". Yet none of the 3 theological writers in Jeruselum at the time ever mention him. There is no record of Pontius Pilot ever crucifying jesus.

The accuracy of this notwithstanding, it's irrelevant to whether or not Jesus is based on sun gods.

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Mithra was called "the good shepherd,�?

Source?

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"the way, the truth and the light,�?

Source?

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“savior,�?

Source? There is a line from Santa Prisca that runs 'et nos servasti [...] sanguine fuso' (And you saved us with the shed blood) (Oxford DCMR), which would seem to refer to the blood of the slain bull. I'm not aware of anything referring to Mithras under the epithet "Savior". The ODCMR cautions: ". . .though one must beware of reading into this 'salvation' inappropriate Christian connotations."

In other words, "saved us" only has a Christian connotation if you read one into it. There is no evidence suggesting that is what is intended.

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“Messiah."

Why would the Cult of Roman Mithras refer to their deity with a Semitic term that they'd probably never heard of?

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He was identified with both the lion and the lamb.

Source?

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I am thinking a pretty smart group of people got together and consolidated the Jewish prophecy with the sun god myth to create the number 1 religion of the time.

Except that none of the gods/heroes you cite here (Mithras and Heracles) are sun gods. It's quite the jump from one to the other.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

GakuseiDon · 12-20-2004, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Sumner

Despite Gakuseidon, Amphitryon never slept with Alcmene before Zeus did, as Alcmene declined him until he avenged the death of her 8 brothers (Graves, _The Greek Myths_, 447; Oxford Dictionary of Classical Myth and Religion, 251).

Thanks Rick, I didn't know that.

A general question, opened to anyone who may know: nowadays, if someone isn't married, we wouldn't assume they were virgins. Was this the case in pagan Rome and Greece? One thing I've noticed in the myths is that, even if the woman is single, there appears to be no mention of whether she was a virgin or not in most cases. (Perseus's mother is an exception, but even there it is mentioned only indirectly) Either it is assumed that she is, or it just doesn't appear to matter.

Toto · 12-20-2004, 04:03 PM

In traditional societies of that era, women were required to be virgins before marriage. Young women were generally married very soon after puberty in any case.

GakuseiDon · 12-20-2004, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

In traditional societies of that era, women were required to be virgins before marriage. Young women were generally married very soon after puberty in any case.

I don't doubt virginity was valued, but was it actually required? Would lack of virginity on the part of a Greek or Roman woman be enough to stop marriage?

I've read about antics that occurred with the female worshippers of Dionysus, and the behaviour of some of the women in Roman times. It sounds to me that the traditions of those societies towards sex differed to the ones of the ancient Hebrews.

Toto · 12-21-2004, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

I don't doubt virginity was valued, but was it actually required? Would lack of virginity on the part of a Greek or Roman woman be enough to stop marriage?

. . . .

Virginity is how the patriarch knows that his children are really his, and Greece and Rome were patriarchal.

Marriage in ancient Greece

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The average age difference between husband and wife was fifteen years. Hesoid's advice was that "A man should marry at about thirty, choosing for his wife, a girl of sixteen" (quoted in Flacelière 59). Although there were no formal laws governing a specific age to marry, Flacelière (59) also mentioned that girls could marry as soon as puberty hit. As Powers notes,

"A girl married at the age of fifteen because it was presumed to guarantee virginity. Gentlemen married at thirty because that was the usual age when they finished their military service".

Ancient Roman marriage

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It is undeniable that the Romans, like the Greeks before them, demanded different standards of chastity from women and men. The preservation of virginity before marriage was essential. A few cautionary tales were handed down as a deterrent, but the offence was more effectively avoided by the practice of marrying girls off soon after they reached puberty and by the strict upbringing of the daughters of the upper classes. To assert that a man debauched Roman virgins was almost too bad a charge for even blackening a political enemy . . . . Discretion, if not virtue, prevails. Chastity was also demanded of married women and viduae.

GakuseiDon · 12-21-2004, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Virginity is how the patriarch knows that his children are really his, and Greece and Rome were patriarchal.

Marriage in ancient Greece

Ancient Roman marriage

Thanks, Toto.

Dave Roberts · 12-21-2004, 04:26 AM

See if this helps

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0310SunGod.html

Chili · 12-21-2004, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthtesty

I am thinking a pretty smart group of people got together and consolidated the Jewish prophecy with the sun god myth to create the number 1 religion of the time. Just look at the money and political power that the Roman Catholic church made from the myth.

In Anthro 101 they teach that survival and prosperity of the tribe is the purpose of the myth. Do you think that that is true or is it the other way around?

GakuseiDon · 12-21-2004, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Roberts

See if this helps

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0310SunGod.html

The link has: a crucified Mithras, a crucified Krishna, John the Baptist symbolising the moon, a positive review of Kersey Graves' book... Nope, it didn't help.

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12-20-2004, 04:03 PM	#14
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	In traditional societies of that era, women were required to be virgins before marriage. Young women were generally married very soon after puberty in any case.

12-21-2004, 04:26 AM	#18
Dave Roberts Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Diego Posts: 1,440	See if this helps http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0310SunGod.html

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