Jade

I need a jaw-dropping emoticon, stat!

1) Flowers don't know anything -- to know something you need to have some capacity to percieve and to hold beliefs about the world. Flowers do not have brains, and do not have either of these capacities.
2) If you said, "This is a rose" and you held up a rose, I don't have to "be the rose" to know that you are telling the truth. Similarly, if you pointed at a daisy and said, "That is a rose", I don't have to be either a rose OR a daisy to know your statement is false.
Seeing as how no one but you can 'be you', it is impossible (by your logic) for anyone to know anything but themselves. That is absurd.
So if you said, "I never post in IIDB", I would first have to become you (somehow) to know that statement is false?
Yes. The wine is what the wine is. How does this mean anything?

Darth Dane

It amounts to:

Unproved assertion!

How do you know that a flower can't know anything?



Why? Why shouldn't it possible?


Yes, you may believe what I say, but unless you are me, you can never know.

Jade

As I said, "knowing" requires perception and the ability to hold beliefs. Flowers are sexual organs, and have neither the sense-organs nor the processing-organs necessary to enable perception and belief.
You just said that to know something you must 'be' it. It is impossible to be anything other than what you are -- for example I cannot be or become a flower; I cannot be or become you. Therefore by your logic it is impossible for me to know anything other than myself (what I am).
Knowledge is "rationally justified belief". I believe you post on IIDB, and my belief is rationally justified:
1) If you did not post on IIDB then I would not see any posts of yours.
2) I see posts of yours.
3) Therefore you post on IIDB.

Thus I know that you post on IIDB.

Jade

Where initially I was not sure if there was any possible EoG relevance that could be milked out of this thread, now I am sure that there isn't. Off to ~E~ we go...

Darth Dane

So you assert that only a brain can perceive?


Knowing what you are, enables you to see what a flower is.

To know yourself, you have to be conscious of everything you have ever experienced. When you know your self, you will know the flower

If you don't know who perceives, what is the perception worth?


If you are the sum total of existence, then you are the flower


To find out if you are the sum total, you must know who asks the questions, who lives your life.

Only one who is fully conscious will know who perceives the world









I see, I thought the scenario was slightly different, nevermind.

If I on IIDB write," I never post at IIDB", then it would be a lie wouldn't it?

But then you will know my post, not me!



Knowledge = rational justified belief

Knowledge = belief?

I am not really interested in what you believe, theists can give me the lowdown on belief, I want knowledge, "true" knowledge if you will


Again, for me to know true knowledge, I must know who it is that Knows, without this, what can I really use it for?

Darth Dane

As you see, I am nearing the EoG.


Your existence is the existence of "God"/reality


To save one life, is to save the world entire - Talmud saying



If this is true:

To know your self is to know God/reality


It becomes possible to find the answer, if you can become fully conscious.

Jade

No -- everything that can carry out the function of percieving is a thing that can percieve. To date, the only things that we know of which can perform this function are brains, and arguably a few other kinds of machines (like computers).

We know a great deal about flowers -- humans have studied them for millenia, and scientists have methodically studied them for centuries. We know what flowers do, and we know a great deal about how they do it. Nothing about flowers indicates any kind of ability to form perceptions. The closest flowers get is chemical reactions to various simple stimuli (like sunflowers tracking the sun, or other flowers opening and closing in response to temperatures). If this counts as perception, then every time my door creaks when it is opened it is 'forming perceptions'.

It is plainly absurd to speak of flowers being able to percieve or 'know' anything. You might as well speak of rocks "having dreams", or of water as "being emotional". Such absurdities can occasionally make good poetry, but other than that thay are useless.
No. My knowledge that I am a homo sapien adds nothing to my store of knowledge about flowers.
False. Blatantly false (unless you mean by "know yourself" something other than "know stuff about yourself"). I know I have a headache right now -- I don't have to remember my birth to know this.
Let me get this straight...
1) "To know yourself, you have to be conscious of everything you have ever experienced."
2) "If you don't know who perceives, what is the perception worth?" -- implication: perception without knowledge of the perciever is worthless.
3) No one is conscious of everything they have ever experienced, or at least the vast majority of people are not.
4) Therefore no one (or near enough) knows themselves.
5) Therefore the perceptions of everyone (or near enough) are worthless.
'The flower is part of the Earth. Therefore the Earth is the flower.'
huh....?
Sorry, kinda got bored with that whole section...
No, knowledge = "rational justified belief". "Rational justified belief" does not equal "belief"; just as "red baskets with fruit in them" does not equal "baskets".
Garrbledy, cqusltbpla, sna?

Jade

Would this involve the consumption of large amounts of mind-altering narcotics?

Darth Dane

So, based on this, you believe flowers can't perceive?



I was asking you a question, not implying.


What use is it for you if cannot remember you took a rollercoaster ride? Who experienced it?

Is an experience yours if you do not perceive it or are not conscious about it?

When you sleep, who sleeps? You don't know because your were unconscious right?

Is it possible to be aware you are sleeping?

When you dream, who dreams? Are you aware that you are dreaming, or do you just dream?


If you don't know your self fully, you cannot know who knows the world


Well, they do, only they don't remember, but it amounts to the same thing

Look above.


Whatever attributes you give it, it is and remains a BELIEF

You believe your are rational, you believe you are justified, you believe your beliefs

Is this knowledge?

Darth Dane

LOL, maybe maybe not, I don't know, I can offer you beliefs, but I have a feeling you don't wan't belief but fact