Meatros

This sounds like respect is a good thing - but again you are appealing to value judgements that Adam would have been unable to make.

Why should Adam respect anything?

Joan of Bark

Or, for that matter, disrespect anything? Respect comes from experience in dealing with fallible human beings. Adam was surrounded by perfection. He WAS as innocent as a young chld.

Johnny Skeptic

Why yes, and with good reason. For instance, God says that killing people is wrong, but he frequently kills babies who have never done anything against him.

On the contrary, you need to re-evaluate your conception of God. No loving, moral God would cause animals to kill each other. In addition, no loving, moral God would discriminate against Syrian children who have Muslim parents by refusing to tell them about the Gospel message himself. If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why no one has ever hear the Gospel message unless another person told them about it. It is quite suspicious that it is frequently possible to tell WHERE God will choose reveal himself to people through humans. As a Calvinist, you claim that God chooses who he reveal himself to by using humans. If that is true, why does God have a preference for avoiding using humans who are Muslims, and live in Muslim countries such as Syria and Lybia? The logical conclusion is that parents choose what to teach their children, not God.

Are you aware that God forces everyone to sin at least some of the time? That is wrong. God genetically passes the predisposition to sin at least some of the time to every human, and he genetically causes some animals to kill each other.

You made an assertion. Please provide evidence regarding who wrote the claim, when the claim was first written down, that God inspired the story, where the writer got his information from, and that the original story has not been changed like some other original stories have been changed or contradicted.

First of all, there are not any good reasons for anyone to believe that the story of Adam and Eve is true. If God told Adam that he would die if he ate the forbidden fruit, there is no evidence that he explained to Adam whether if he died he would cease to exist, or would eventually have another life in heaven or hell. In addition, there is no evidence that God told Adam how his actions would affect all humans for succeeding generations if he ate the forbidden fruit.

That's it. You have finally got it. Congratulations. Yes, today, people can judge God based upon his character. God provably has poor character as judged by his own standards. God is a murderer, a liar, and a hypocrite, including a baby killer and an animal killer.

Your apparent interest in textual evidence is obviously a masquerade. It the Bible said that God will send everyone to hell, you would reject it. Your emotional perceived self-interest has caused you to accept promises that you believe will ultimately benefit you, and to reject promises that you do not believe will ultimately benefit you. Obviously, logic and reason are not any part of your worldview.

Regarding your buddy Pascal, if he were here today, he would tell you that you will go to hell because you are not a Roman Catholic. Regarding your buddy John Calvin, he approved of the murder Christians who disagreed with his interpretations of the Bible. If Calvin did not ask God to forgive him, Calvin will go to hell. Pascal might go to hell too for promoting false doctrines.

If you had known John Calvin, I would not be surprised if you would have approved of his awful character. In addition, if you had been a Christian in 1600 A.D., it is probable that you would have approved of colonization, slavery, and the subjugation of women. It is embarrassing for you that the best evidence shows that chance and circumstance determine what people believe, not the God of the Bible.

Johnny Skeptic

In typical fashion, rhutchin continues to vacates threads whenever he gets into trouble, such as the thread regarding God breaking his promise to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar, the thread on Bible contradictions, and the thread on inerrancy. No matter what is discussed in this thread, if Adam and Eve did not exist, obviously, this thread has no practical value. There is not any credible historical evidence that Adam and Eve existed. Lee Merrill has argued that science confirms the creation accounts in Genesis. As bad as Lee's arguments are, at least he did not exlcusively use rhutchin's "the Bible says so" argument. No intelligent, well-prepared Christian would use "the Bible says so" as his favorite argument. Most, if not all skeptics at this forum are very familiar with what the Bible says.

I just started at new thread at the GRD Forum regarding one of rhutchin's many blunders. The link is http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...12#post5078612. The issue regards an older thread that rhutchin started about whether or not God should interfere with a person's choice to go to heaven or hell.

Matt Stone

Isn't that one of many admonishments the bible aims via the NT at believers, to approach god with the mind of a child? I don't think they imply stupidity, but children are capable of believing in all manner of imaginary things, fully believing them to be 100% real despite evidence to the contrary...

I'm still hung up on the explicit threat of death for disobedience. Pretty harsh, especially when you're setting your creation up for failure from the outset. Further, as so many others have pointed out, it sets god up for being anything but his current public persona of a just, loving, and forgiving entity.

Just? I'm apologizing for being how he made me? I'm apologizing for the failing under conditions set up specifically so I would fail?

Loving? Creating a thing, then wantonly destroying it in a fit of anger because it disobeyed? How many children would survive their toddler years of parents routinely followed this biblical example?

Forgiving? Obey or die. Period. No respite, no forgiveness, just death.

I don't get it...

:huh:

Johnny Skeptic

This is indirectly related to an absurd thread that you started some time ago at http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=185643. Following is your opening post.

It quickly became apparent to you that you would embarrass yourself if you made any most posts, so you conveniently vacated your own thread without making any more posts, or any concessions. That is quite unusual behavior at the IIDB. I just started a new thread at the GRD Forum about your older thread at www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=185643.

angelo

It's a nice children's bedtime story. Plus it teaches children to keep away from serpents, they could be dangerous. Especially the evangelical ones.

Jack the Bodiless

Yes, this only makes sense if I think he understands such things. Adam, however, did not. So your argument is essentially, "well, if we assume that Adam DID know the difference between good and evil...". Which is evasion of the issue.
Yes.
The Bible.
Yes, Adam is presented in the Bible as being morally equivalent to a small child. But we are not the ones who contrived these circumstances: it's not our story, rhutchin.

IIRC, some Jews have a pretty enlightened view of this: God goofed, and Eve did the right thing.

sonofone

I find this biblical passage to be both true,and beautiful.It is a perfect demonstration of Gods consistent character in regards to his dealing with man.

God states that without faith it is impossible to please God.For you have to first believe that he is,and that he is a rewarder of them who diligently seek him.

It further states that whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

It appears that Adam had what was ideal and what all of Christians long for.That is they literally fellowshipped with God,intimately in this utopian garden.Dare I say it is what every atheist and agnostic demands,show me yourself then only will I believe!

Yet they did not possess what only we can have.Dare I say it? It is the word that we Christians come to love,and Agnostics and atheist alike despise.Why don't we all say it in unison: FAITH:Cheeky:

Faith involves persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true.There is no way they could have had this absent their ability to know right from wrong or good from evil.

So we have a situation where man is dumb fat and happy,and God is saying this is not it.It's not enough for you to know that I exist,I need you to have trust in me.So God orchestrated the events that would bring this about.For you can't have trust without conflict.

You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried.So Adam had no advantage over us his position not to be envied.He needed to have faith just as we,and he had to come by it honestly.He fell flat on his face following his wife in her disobedience.

So in their disobedience they learned that God was faithful to do just as he said,and in learning they were able to walk as God intended them to.They walked by faith,not by sight.They were cast from the sight of God,that place that contained the tree of life.This tree was and still is guarded by the sword.The sword is his holy word,the bible which still guards the tree of life.

Lord show me a sign that I might believe.Lord anything but that sword which turns every way so that I can not access this tree of life you speak of.For in passing through it it will surely cut off my flesh and kill me.

Hebrews 4 vs 12-13 For the word of God is living and active.Sharper than any double edged sword,it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit,joints and marrow: it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Nothing in all creation is hidden from Gods sight.Everything is uncovered and laid before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

xaxxat

Oh, brother...

:banghead: