spin

Conceptually, of course they are. whether they are complementary, whether they depend on each other, is irrelevant to them being separate notions. What is being discussed here is like taking the name Will and saying that that is different from Iam. The meaningfulness of the act is the same. As Will and Iam of William are not two distinct notions, neither are Yah and weh. This is absurd hypothesizing without a single scrap of evidence.


If you want to think of it as psychological, well, that's not inappropriate. It may not be a sane mind which makes such awful mental gaffs.

We are talking about names artificially separated and each part given arbitrary meanings. The terms, and concepts for, male and female already exist.

What the hell have yin and yang to do with YHWH? And how the hell would you know some concept is at least 50,000 years old?


spin

Chris Weimer

The continuum is already found in Judaism in Genesis 2:24.

Clivedurdle

But Dharma commented it might be to do with the original vowels - denoting earth, air etc. It feels we are approaching this from different directions, and I do not understand what it is that is getting you so angry (and rude) about this.

Why this insistence on separation? Ying and yang are examples of shamanistic thinking, yah and weh may also be examples of opposites being brought together - the male and female becoming one is actually shamanistic and taoist thinking!


Where is this awful mental gaff? Have you looked at the link to shamanism?


I had question marks in my statement. I commented if you find similar ideas in two different places you have two options, either they were invented separately or it is actually a common idea, so next question is when were the peoples together, and the answer is whenever asiatic peoples arrived in the americas, which I thought was now dated 50,000 years back.




I have had a quick glance at the catholic encyclopaedia about yhwh and to be honest there is a huge amount of guess work there. I would not reject an approach that asks questions about shamanistic thinking out of hand, even though it does have strong new age accretions.

Can we try and get some more evidence here instead of getting rude with each other? Who knows how mother earth was described in Hebrew?

spin

How would Dharma know? The methodology displayed in this thread is crushingly poor.

Just like cli and ve may be examples of such opposites.

You don't carve up words because it suits you.

So you weren't too sure. What gave you the idea in the first place?

Perhaps it was inscribed on the shell of a cocoanut which was carried across the ocean by an African swallow. If you ask an Italian he'll say that Meucci invented the television.

I'm all for evidence. Always have been. Always will be. Now, shamanism is not something that leaves nice traces when you can say, "look, this is shamistic." And no amount of linguistically ignorant word twiddling will get anyone any closer to evidence of anything. Why should anyone assume that "mother earth" was a used concept in Hebrew culture? The catholic encyclopaedia is no substitute for gaining awareness in the field of Hebrew philology.


spin

Clivedurdle

This thread was originally an attempt to delineate the gods of the bible.

The invention of gods is a long historic evolutionary process, of which we still have existing examples around the world, animism and shamanism being key examples. We have quite modern examples - Newton and alchemy is a classic one.

There was a thread in evo that chimps may have invented religion.

Looking at shamanism, which is about ecstasy, this is also relevant.

Jesus and cannabis

YH WH as separate entities in a similar way to ying yang looks a reasonable hypothesis to do further work on. It looks like we have a baby here in this huge bathwater of kabbalah, magick and new age stuff!

Clivedurdle

But yhwh is holy - it was thought to be blasphemous to write or utter it! It might not even be one word!

We really do not have a clue about it, it is all guess work.

OK, then, let us approach the problem from a different direction. We have examples of yah.

We know earth sky whatever are common traditions around the world.

How might these traditions have evolved into the formulation yhwh?

Chris Weimer

But Yah(u) is never sky and weh is never mentioned.

spin

Unfortunately, the evidence is umm, in the bible, in the few inscriptions available and from comparative cultural information from other sites.

This is how one establishes Asherah as a deity in her own right. We get to see El's real position. We see the parallels between Yahweh and Baal. Etc. There was plainly a pantheon. All you have to do is look at it.

What you are doing with shamanism, I'll leave to you. I can't see you mustering any contemporary evidence whatsoever. So, as I said, I'll leave it to you.


spin

Sheshbazzar

To prove the proposition that "shamanism" was involved in the original creation or development of the Name "Yahweh", Clive, Dharma, and Winkler, (and anyone else), will first need to establish and to prove with several clear and irrefutable examples that;

(1) A word, 'weh' even exists in Hebrew.
(in other words list for us texts or inscriptions where "weh" is used separately as a word, so that we may all independently examine these texts or inscriptions)

(2) that this 'word' can be proved to have anciently had the meaning that you are attempting to assign to it, "..female, i.e. mother earth"
(in other words provide examples from ancient literature, inscriptions or icons, that clearly indicate the usage of "weh" (Heb. wah-heh or w-h) as a word for "female" or "mother earth".

(3) And that it (w-h) was ever separately employed as the name of a "female..mother earth" deity.
(Just on the off instance that some evidence of using it in this fashion, is to be found, then (Exodus 23:13, Josh 23:7 and 24:2, 14-16) would apply,
---------because;

(4) Such a 'teaching' or 'explanation' would still require approval by Levitical "Decision" (Deut. 17:12-13, 21:5, 25:1-2)
And would also require proof that it is the accepted and formal teaching of Yahweh's authorized Levitical Priesthood.

After you have accomplished all of your proofs meeting these criteria, there will be reason to give the proposition serious consideration.
......................... I like spins example of "will" and "iam"

Chris Weimer

OOOO! OOOO! PICK ME PICK ME PLEEEEZ! Can I give them a hint? Look at the Hebrew for Genesis 3:20