MagiNoir

The smoke isn't what it used to be back then.

newtype_alpha

Is THAT who that was? I thought it was Gwen Stephani


Sofie Marceau, Barbara Bush, Christiann Amanpour, respectively

You may be on to something. Perhaps God is loosing his powers and the "revival" movements are a last ditch effort to recruit more followers in order to try and get himself back on top? Seems like it would be easier just to get a Bowflex or something... :huh:

John A. Broussard

One argument I've heard is that miracles are more likely to occur among the poor and ignorant because god especially loves these humble people. The rich and educated are bypassed when it comes to miracles because of their pride.

orac

According to the bible, the rich and educated would regularly get flattened by the mighty fist of god. Sure, they may not enjoy it, but plenty of other rich and educated people nearby would at least wonder why their neighbous were living in a crater or having so much trouble catching the runaway slaves.

(Ok, I'll be fair: finding any of the neighbours who wrote about the seas turning to blood or the plagues of frogs is actually quite difficult - but if the miracles had happened everyone would have noticed.)

And in any case, these days the miracle of the man who spent years at medical school and then another decade or so practising his craft before being able to remove the tumor from a christian's brain tends to be reserved for the rich and educated. If you're a poor and dumb christian you'll probably have trouble getting that one.

I'm more impressed by the miracle of the skeptic who defeated god's awesome power by merely sitting quietly 2 continents away. The power of skeptics to overcome all forms of telepathy, mystical healing and even god's magic always amazes me.

satur9poet

The "miracles" cited in the Bible were mentioned by uneducated men before the dawn of science. Basically, God is dead, and logic replaced Him. I've heard many Biblical anomalies explained away as common scientific phenomona. Back then, people relied on myth and superstition to explain reality. Such superstition is just one ground for debunking theism.

Secondly, just because you hear that miracles are proof of god's existence doesn't mean miracles happen. They don't. 99 percent of what people claim are miracles are intentional hoaxes. What it boils down to is: Miracles don't exist, only answers that science has yet to explain.

satur9poet

True, and the fact is that there is a direct correlation between religiosity and education and income. Those with less education are prone to believe religious myth and dogma, while those who go thru the higher education system learn to know better. It'a all about locus of control, too. If you're poor and disadvantaged, you're more likely to see your life in terms of it being influenced by outside forces and circumstances. On the other hand, a person with a large income is more likely to have an internal locus of control, seeing life as being influenced by decisions and actions made by his/her self.

John A. Broussard

There's much to be said for that view. Certainly, the poorer you are the more things you need to pray for. since you can't get them any other way.

Case in point. A poor person is sick and can't afford the medicine to cure or alleviate the illness. Might as well pray.

Atheos

In my previously well-defined fundie xian worldview the issue of "miracles" was tidily summed up with a simple argument:

Miracles were never intended to create faith. Instead they were intended to confirm the word of god. It was only during times of transition, when the word of god was changing, that substantial numbers of miracles were to be found.

My particular brand of xianity argued for three distinct dispensations of time, a "patriarchal" age (From Adam to Moses) during which the patriarchs received direct orders from the Big Guy, the "Mosaic" age (from Moses to Jesus) during which people (well, at least jewish ones) were amenable to the law delivered by Moses, and finally the "christian" age (From Jesus until the end of time) where everyone (yes, everyone) gets to be ruled by Jesus.

The argument was that Moses produced lots of miracles when delivering his law because it was a time of change. Ditto Jesus and the apostles. But when the message was confirmed and accepted the miracles ceased.

Of course this tidy argument breaks down severely once you consider that all the miracles produced by such folks as Elijah, Gideon, Samson, etc., were clearly during a time when such transitions were definitely not taking place.

-Atheos

Atheos

Another thing that's always bothered me about miracles is the claim that "if you don't believe you won't get a miracle". It seems there's plenty of evidence that the one producing the miracle was the only one who had to have faith.

For example, Elijah was ostensibly able to call forth a pretty impressive miracle before a decidedly hostile crowd of infidels in I Kings 18. Similarly, Elisha managed to produce a miracle by getting an axe head to "swim" on the surface of the water so it could be recovered (II Kings 6). The lame dude healed by Peter and John in Acts 3 didn't manifest faith before getting the goods. Paul struck Elymas the sorcerer blind in Acts 13. Elymas didn't have to be a believer to get that stroke of good luck. Not to mention Ananias and Saphira who were struck dead by Peter in Acts 5 because they lied about the loot.

-Atheos

The Inquisitor

I often here Catholics tell me that those biblical days were the "age of miracles".

Which *obviously* explains why we don't see any around today...despite the fact that they still believe 'personal' miracles occur quite regularly.