aa5874

You promote "Chinese whispers" or PROPAGANDA and MIX FACTS with FICTION.

I have REPEATEDLY shown you that even in the NT Jesus COMMANDED that his disciples TELL NO MAN he was CHRIST.

I have REPEATEDLY shown you that even in the NT Jesus was NOT an apocalyptic preacher and that Jesus MERELY had a PRIVATE discussion with FOUR disciples, just FOUR disciples, in gMark, about the Apocalypse.

Let us go through the ACTUAL written evidence one MORE time to show that you are mixing FACTS with FICTION.

Mt 16:20 - Please STOP mixing FACTS with FICTION. Jesus did NOT want ANYBODY to know he was Christ even in the NT.

Now, look at Mark 13.3-4 Please stop MIXING FACTS with FICTION.

It was the Holy Ghost that STARTED the CULT of Christians with its AWESOME POWER.

In the NT it was the HOLY GHOST that GAVE the disciples AWESOME POWER and AWESOME GIFTS to START Christianity.

Look at the WRITTEN EVIDENCE and STOP MIXING FACTS with FICTION.

Lu 24:49 - The Holy Ghost, the CULT LEADER, the PROMISED powerful Ghost, the THING like the MIGHTY rushing WIND (A TORNADO?) came on the DAY of Pentecost.

Acts 2:1-4 - On the VERY Day of Pentecost, in Acts 2, 3000 PEOPLE BECAME CHRISTIANS after their CULT LEADER the POWERFUL HOLY GHOST EMPOWERED the disciples with ITS AWESOME POWER and GIFTS.

Ac 2:41 -
Please STOP mixing FACTS with FICTION when even in the NT Jesus did NOT want any MAN to know he was Christ, had a PRIVATE discussion about the Apocalypse, and Sent the POWERFUL HOLY Ghost to START the Christian cult.

I have had ENOUGH of your PROPAGANDA.

Please, TELL NO MAN that it was Jesus. Tell them the actual written evidence. Tell EVERYBODY it was the Holy Ghost.

Tell them the FACTS as it is WRITTEN. Even "Paul" was FILLED with HOLY GHOST.

1Co 14:18 - Tell EVERYBODY the actual WRITTEN FACTS about HOLY GHOST.

JOSEPH SMITH SEEMS MORE LIKE THE HOLY GHOST.

Without Joseph Smith ON EARTH there would have been NO MORMONISM.

Without the Holy Ghost ON EARTH there would have been NO CHRISTIANS in the NT.

These are the FACTS.

I don't want to hear your propaganda.

ApostateAbe

Oh, by the way, for those who may have difficulty with proper comprehension, my presentation of "facts" uses the adjective, "reputed," meaning it is what many people thought of Jesus and Joseph Smith. Saying "reputed human" is not the same as saying "human." It is not my fact that Jesus and Joseph Smith were human--only that they were reputed to be. Thank you.

Juststeve

I really don't think Jesus is like either Joseph Smith or Moroni. Christianity is not the religion of Jesus, it is a religion about Jesus. That eliminates Joseph Smith on the grounds that the Later day Saints are following a religion which was created by Joseph Smith.

Neither was Jesus much like Moroni since Jesus is himself the object of worship for Christians, not just a messenger.

I agree with whoever said that the analogous Joseph Smith figure is Paul who formulated a religious understanding of the death and alleged resurrection of Jesus.

Steve

ApostateAbe

The analogy is limited, like any analogy, and that is why my presentation of facts was limited. Despite the limitations, I think Jesus is far more analogous to Joseph Smith than the Angel Moroni, if only for the strength and relevance of the few facts. It kinda bugs me when someone claims it is just as easy to explain the beginning of Christianity without an actual Jesus as it is to explain the beginning of the LDS church without the Angel Moroni. Doomsday cults, including the LDS church and Christianity, follow very consistent patterns, and I hate for anyone to overlook that as irrelevant.

Steven Carr

Galatians 1:1

Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

Paul simply denies Jesus was human.

But Abe thinks that if Paul claimed the resurrected Jesus appointed him, then this somehow shows that there was an earthly Jesus who appointed apostles.

The logic is bewildering, but needed to try to somehow get an earthly human Jesus as a founder of the church out of Paul.

But Paul claims he was appointed by an apostle by a person who was not alive.

Resurrected Jesus's are like the Angel Moroni. Neither exist, and they both gave messages - one to Paul, and one to Joseph Smith.

JonA

The angel is inherently unfalsifiable; thus it cannot do service in any historical hypothesis.

Jesus, however, is entirely falsifiable and so can easily play a part in an historical hypothesis.

It should also be remembered that Paul didn't 'found' Christianity. There were other Jesus followers around before Paul, many of whom apparently didn't like his theology.

It is more accurate to say Paul founded, in large part, Christianity as we know it today.

So, there is Christianity without Paul; is there Mormonism without Smith?

Jon

Toto

What evidence would you accept that would falsify the historical Jesus?

Juststeve

Toto:

Perhaps a comprehensive record of the people crucified under Pilate lacking the name of Jesus. Perhaps documentation of contemporaneous denials of the existence of Jesus from the first century. You know, critics making claims similar to those you champion during the first century. Things like that would cast real doubt on the existence of the man Jesus.

Steve

JonA

Without going too far off topic: The fact that he is proposed to be a flesh and blood critter who interacted observably with the natural world, for one thing, is sufficient to make him falsifiable.

A better explanation for the early Christian movement would also work; as supplanting an hypothesis with a better one is, in historical studies, as good as tentatively falsifying the former.

Jon

Toto

But there is no direct evidence of him interacting observably with the natural world. There are fabulous tales of him performing miracles, disappearing, being crucified but then rising from the dead. Historicists explain the lack of hard evidence on the grounds that he was too obscure to rate any mention in official records and the tales about him were turned into legends.

It seems that the historical Jesus has become unfalsifiable on the basis of evidence.

And the historical Jesus hypothesis has become so firmly implanted in the culture that most adherents cannot recognize its deficiencies.