Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rlogan · 02-17-2004, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spin
...but the fact that the Cain descent does not presuppose a flood. It in fact presupposes a continuation from the lines of Lamech's three sons. For this writer there was no flood, otherwise he would have found it absurd to say that Jabal would sire those who live in tents and raise livestock, and that Jubal was the ancestor of those who play the lyre and pipe. He would know that both lines would be doomed to extinction, if there were a universal flood.

Uh oh. Better bring out the fire trucks.

I am beginning to see the merit in the Church acting as intermediary between the book of holes and the layman.

Asha'man · 02-17-2004, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spin
I'm sure this is old hat, but I'm still marvelling over the Cain descent in Genesis 4. What is interesting as I've said elsewhere is not the fact that it is an alternative to the Seth descent and a number of names are shared, implying that they seem to come from the same source at some stage, but the fact that the Cain descent does not presuppose a flood. It in fact presupposes a continuation from the lines of Lamech's three sons. For this writer there was no flood, otherwise he would have found it absurd to say that Jabal would sire those who live in tents and raise livestock, and that Jubal was the ancestor of those who play the lyre and pipe. He would know that both lines would be doomed to extinction, if there were a universal flood.

Good point, but there is an escape hatch for the convoluted thinking of fundies: Noah's daughter-in-laws. He took his sons aboard the ark, along with their wives. We have no idea what the ancestry of the wives was.

Ellis14 · 02-17-2004, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Asha'man
Good point, but there is an escape hatch for the convoluted thinking of fundies: Noah's daughter-in-laws. He took his sons aboard the ark, along with their wives. We have no idea what the ancestry of the wives was.

But we can be sure of course, that their descendants went immediately to the places previously occupied by former ancient civilisations and seamlessly adopted the language, culture and practices of those, which is why it only appears as though the flood passed so many civilisations by, which it obviously didn't, since it was global and they were all wiped out.

Answerer · 02-17-2004, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LP675

The point was Sven made a claim that was false. I tried (successfully I think) to refute him. I am new here but I thought we were in the 'Biblical Criticism & History' channel, not the 'creation evolution channel'(meaning scientific evidences of the flood arn't really appropriate). That is how it works isnt it?

You are new, so? You might be a experienced forumer for what I can tell.

Ok, if you don't like the words 'scienific evidences', there are always such things called 'physical historical evidences'.

Anyway, stop beating about the bush and get to the main point, won't you?

Indy · 02-19-2004, 06:31 AM

One thing about this debate continues popping into mind. Many Xians take the Bible to be the absolute word of God, divinely inspired and all of that. This is really the only way the flood story can be believed at all--any sensible xian (yes, I realize that is something of an oxymoron, like Army Intelligence or jump shrimp or Microsoft Works) could say "I believe in God, but the Bible is just a guide and these stories are just that--stories."

So, in order for the flood myth to be taken as literal fact (like the creation myth and so many others we could point out all day), I am curious as to what the logical reasons are for accepting the Bible as the divinely inspired word of God. Can anyone cite (a) specific Biblical passage(s) where xians are told that the Bib;e is divine and should be followed to the letter? Just curious.

-Indy

spin · 02-19-2004, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Indy
Can anyone cite (a) specific Biblical passage(s) where xians are told that the Bible is divine and should be followed to the letter?

Maybe 2 Tim 3:16,

All scripture (is) inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.

spin

Doctor X · 02-19-2004, 07:13 AM

Here is a fun one!!

2 Kings 22:8 & 2 Chr 34: 14-15

And Hilki'ah the high priest said to Shaphan the secretary, "I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD." And Hilki'ah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it.

And when they brought out the money that was brought into the house of the LORD, Hilkiah the priest found a book of the law of the LORD [given] by Moses. And Hilkiah answered and said to Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah delivered the book to Shaphan.

Quote:

According to the biblical historian, . . . 622 B.C., Josiah [King--Ed.] received word . . . that the priest Hilkiah had found a "scroll of the torah" in the Temple of Yahweh.

Josiah freaks, tears his clothes, and hold a big ceremony of renewal.

The scroll?

Deuteronomy.

In Deuteronomy, and only Deuteronomy and Joshua, is the book of the torah mentioned in the main books according to Friedman. Moses writes it and it gets hidden.

We then have tons of stuff saying your should follow it. The concept of "divine inspiration" is foreign to the OT. However, according to Friedman, this is all a political "set-up" of the DH who wrote Deuteronomy-Joshua-Judges-Samuel-Kings.

What is "fun" is that in Deuteronomy, the DH attacks the other books of what would be the Pentateuch! Friedman argues that Jeremiah was written by the same author as the DH.

Jeremiah denegrates the P stories by reversing creation in Jer 4:23

Quote:

I looked at the earth,
And here it was uformed and void,
And to the heavens,
And their light was gone.

he quotes P, twists P's language, contradicts some theological points of P and then:

Quote:

Jer 8:8 How do you say, "We are wise, and YHWH's torah is with us"? In fact, here, it was made a lie, the lying pen of scribes.

We have a book in the Bible claiming that a torah the people have is a "lie."

So much for inerrants! if you accept Friedman's argument--with Jeremiah being authored by the same guy as Deuteronomy, this torah is the P torah.

--J.D.

Reference:

Friedman, Who Wrote the Bible?

spin · 02-19-2004, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
Here is a fun one!!

Well, you'll probably find this hysterical:

"David had not read the sealed book of the law which was in the ark, for it had not been opened in Israel since the day of the death of Eleazar and of Jehoshua and of Joshua and the elder who worshipped Ashtaroth. The public (copy) was hidden until Zadok's entry into office."

-- CD 5, 3-5

Ha, ha. Get it?

spin

Doctor X · 02-19-2004, 08:02 AM

Which CD?

Mine is currently playing the soundtrack to Six String Samurai. . . .

--J. "I Do Not Like Rock 'n Roll Music, It is TOO LOUD!" D.

spin · 02-19-2004, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
Which CD?

Mine is currently playing the soundtrack to Six String Samurai. . . .

--J. "I Do Not Like Rock 'n Roll Music, It is TOO LOUD!" D.

Ya don' geddit.

'N' why ainchoo buildin youself ay fine collecshun ov mp3s?

spin

02-19-2004, 06:31 AM	#105
Indy Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Bangor, Maine, USA Posts: 17	Literal translation of the flood myth and the Bible in general One thing about this debate continues popping into mind. Many Xians take the Bible to be the absolute word of God, divinely inspired and all of that. This is really the only way the flood story can be believed at all--any sensible xian (yes, I realize that is something of an oxymoron, like Army Intelligence or jump shrimp or Microsoft Works) could say "I believe in God, but the Bible is just a guide and these stories are just that--stories." So, in order for the flood myth to be taken as literal fact (like the creation myth and so many others we could point out all day), I am curious as to what the logical reasons are for accepting the Bible as the divinely inspired word of God. Can anyone cite (a) specific Biblical passage(s) where xians are told that the Bib;e is divine and should be followed to the letter? Just curious. -Indy

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02-19-2004, 08:02 AM	#109
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Which CD? Mine is currently playing the soundtrack to Six String Samurai. . . . --J. "I Do Not Like Rock 'n Roll Music, It is TOO LOUD!" D.

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