dog-on

Some scribe saw the words James and Jesus in the same paragraph and couldn't fucking resist...

robto

Once again I get "all throughout." Could you try to be a little more specific? Or am I supposed to be able to open up War at random and find a messiah wannabee leading someone astray? (Note: I tried this and it didn't work.)

At 6.5.4 Jos quotes a prophecy that "one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." Do you see this as having application to Jesus? What part of his career represents an attempt to become governor of the habitable earth? (Feel free to make that "supposed career" if you are a mythicist.)

show_no_mercy

It's the entire point of the book. Josephus condemns the Zealots especially.

You obviously didn't read what I wrote, since I never mentioned Jesus - only the person that Josephus thought was the messiah.

bacht

I don't think Josephus ever uses the word "messiah" in Wars

1. And now Archelaus's part of Judea was reduced into a province, and Coponius, one of the equestrian order among the Romans, was sent as a procurator, having the power of [life and] death put into his hands by Caesar. Under his administration it was that a certain Galilean, whose name was Judas, prevailed with his countrymen to revolt, and said they were cowards if they would endure to pay a tax to the Romans and would after God submit to mortal men as their lords. This man was a teacher of a peculiar sect of his own, and was not at all like the rest of those their leaders.

II.8.1

2. Nero therefore bestowed the kingdom of the Lesser Armenia upon Aristobulus, Herod's son, and he added to Agrippa's kingdom four cities, with the toparchies to them belonging; I mean Abila, and that Julias which is in Perea, Tarichea also, and Tiberias of Galilee; but over the rest of Judea he made Felix procurator. This Felix took Eleazar the arch-robber, and many that were with him, alive, when they had ravaged the country for twenty years together, and sent them to Rome; but as to the number of the robbers whom he caused to be crucified, and of those who were caught among them, and whom he brought to punishment, they were a multitude not to be enumerated.

3. When the country was purged of these, there sprang up another sort of robbers in Jerusalem, which were called Sicarii, who slew men in the day time, and in the midst of the city; this they did chiefly at the festivals, when they mingled themselves among the multitude, and concealed daggers under their garments, with which they stabbed those that were their enemies; and when any fell down dead, the murderers became a part of those that had indignation against them; by which means they appeared persons of such reputation, that they could by no means be discovered. The first man who was slain by them was Jonathan the high priest, after whose death many were slain every day, while the fear men were in of being so served was more afflicting than the calamity itself; and while every body expected death every hour, as men do in war, so men were obliged to look before them, and to take notice of their enemies at a great distance; nor, if their friends were coming to them, durst they trust them any longer; but, in the midst of their suspicions and guarding of themselves, they were slain. Such was the celerity of the plotters against them, and so cunning was their contrivance.

4. There was also another body of wicked men gotten together, not so impure in their actions, but more wicked in their intentions, which laid waste the happy state of the city no less than did these murderers. These were such men as deceived and deluded the people under pretense of Divine inspiration, but were for procuring innovations and changes of the government; and these prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen, and went before them into the wilderness, as pretending that God would there show them the signals of liberty. But Felix thought this procedure was to be the beginning of a revolt; so he sent some horsemen and footmen both armed, who destroyed a great number of them.

5. But there was an Egyptian false prophet that did the Jews more mischief than the former; for he was a cheat, and pretended to be a prophet also, and got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him; these he led round about from the wilderness to the mount which was called the Mount of Olives, and was ready to break into Jerusalem by force from that place; and if he could but once conquer the Roman garrison and the people, he intended to domineer over them by the assistance of those guards of his that were to break into the city with him. But Felix prevented his attempt, and met him with his Roman soldiers, while all the people assisted him in his attack upon them, insomuch that when it came to a battle, the Egyptian ran away, with a few others, while the greatest part of those that were with him were either destroyed or taken alive; but the rest of the multitude were dispersed every one to their own homes, and there concealed themselves.

6. Now when these were quieted, it happened, as it does in a diseased body, that another part was subject to an inflammation; for a company of deceivers and robbers got together, and persuaded the Jews to revolt, and exhorted them to assert their liberty, inflicting death on those that continued in obedience to the Roman government, and saying, that such as willingly chose slavery ought to be forced from such their desired inclinations; for they parted themselves into different bodies, and lay in wait up and down the country, and plundered the houses of the great men, and slew the men themselves, and set the villages on fire; and this till all Judea was filled with the effects of their madness. And thus the flame was every day more and more blown up, till it came to a direct war.

II.13.2-6

These men, therefore, trampled upon all the laws of men, and laughed at the laws of God; and for the oracles of the prophets, they ridiculed them as the tricks of jugglers; yet did these prophets foretell many things concerning [the rewards of] virtue, and [punishments of] vice, which when these zealots violated, they occasioned the fulfilling of those very prophecies belonging to their own country; for there was a certain ancient oracle of those men, that the city should then be taken and the sanctuary burnt, by right of war, when a sedition should invade the Jews, and their own hand should pollute the temple of God. Now while these zealots did not [quite] disbelieve these predictions, they made themselves the instruments of their accomplishment.

IV.6.3

And here I cannot but speak my mind, and what the concern I am under dictates to me, and it is this: I suppose, that had the Romans made any longer delay in coming against these villains, that the city would either have been swallowed up by the ground opening upon them, or been overflowed by water, or else been destroyed by such thunder as the country of Sodom perished by, for it had brought forth a generation of men much more atheistical than were those that suffered such punishments; for by their madness it was that all the people came to be destroyed.

V.13 .6

show_no_mercy

Josephus never uses the word "messiah" ever. Except in the two places that supposedly describe the Jesus of Christianity, which makes them highly suspect.

robto

Still no specific references supplied. Oh, well, I will have to go with Bacht's list.

You misunderstood me. Steven's and Neil's claim was that Jos condemns the same kind of "messiah wannabes" that Jesus was (or was said to be). And therefore the remarks on Jesus and James cannot be authentic, because elsewhere Jos attacks just these sorts of people. (At least that is how I understood it - Steven, at least, seems to have dropped out of the discussion.)

So what I want to do is look at the places where Jos supposedly attacks the same sorts of people, and see if they are in fact the same sorts of people. Actually, the burden of proof here is on Steven, who made the claim, but as he has bailed I will carry on regardless.

Here is what I see in Bacht's references:

- Judas, prevailed with his countrymen to revolt,....

- Eleazar the arch-robber, and many that were with him, alive, when they had ravaged the country for twenty years together ...

- Sicarii, who slew men in the day time, and in the midst of the city...

- These were such men as deceived and deluded the people under pretense of Divine inspiration, but were for procuring innovations and changes of the government; and these prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen,.... But Felix thought this procedure was to be the beginning of a revolt...

- But there was an Egyptian false prophet that did the Jews more mischief than the former; for he was a cheat, and pretended to be a prophet also, and got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him; these he led round about from the wilderness to the mount which was called the Mount of Olives, and was ready to break into Jerusalem by force from that place; and if he could but once conquer the Roman garrison and the people, he intended to domineer over them by the assistance of those guards of his that were to break into the city with him.

- a company of deceivers and robbers got together, and persuaded the Jews to revolt, and exhorted them to assert their liberty,...

In every single instance, Josephus is referring to some person or group that was attempting to revolt. Specifically, he abhors those who "by their madness ...all the people came to be destroyed." That is, those who led rebellions (against the Romans) and brought down destruction on the Jews (by the Romans).

So, it seems that for Steven's argument to work, one would need to show that Christians incited rebellion against the Romans and brought down destruction on the Jews thereby. None of you have yet demonstrated this.

In other words, what I am saying is that Christians were, in fact, NOT AT ALL the same kind of people that Josephus attacks, and therefore the claim that he couldn't have spoken neutrally about them fails.

show_no_mercy

And that's exactly what the Jewish Messiah was supposed to do.

You are working from the assumption that the Jewish messiah is the Christian version of it. The Messiah in Judaism was someone who followed the model of the Biblical Joshua. People like Cyrus the Great, Alexander, and Simon Bar-Kokhba. This is what leads to your confusion that Josephus mentions Jesus at 6.5.4 in "Wars" when he argues who the messiah is supposed to be.

Josephus never once mentions "Christians".

Steven Carr

I see. So Jesus and the movement was not the slightest threat to the Romans,and nobody perceived things that way, not even Josephus.

So the Romans killed Jesus, putting 'King of the Jews' on his cross.

Why?

bacht

According to the gospel story, the king reference came from Jesus' teachings about the kingdom of heaven. Therefore his crime was sedition, a pretender to the monarchy (this may have been Judas' accusation).

In Acts the Christians have no political or military aspirations in the years before the revolt, though the apostles have various run-ins with authorities, leading up to Paul's arrest and transfer to Rome.

Steven Carr

And in Acts the Jews kill Jesus.