jdlongmire

I am so amused by the current Atheist strategy to compare the miracles of God and His power to belief in magic.

A. Magic is control of reality through Man. An attempt to wrest control from God and ascribe it to our own capabilities.

B. The arrogance of Man to propose that all things can be explained though material naturalism - the miracle of life, the origin of the universe, beauty, honor, spiritual love - all unexplainable, unreproducable naturally and miraculous, yet they have the temerity to suggest we lack logic because we ascribe these things to a Creator and search for the mechanism He delivers these things...whereas they would ascribe it to random Chance and build their concepts of reality on purposelessness and ultimate futility.

"What is Man that Thou art mindful of Him..."!

Biff the unclean

I'm amused that grown people in the 21 century believe in magical thinking.
It isn't a strategy to call miracles magic. It's honesty, much like calling a spade a spade

jdlongmire

Certainly..

I'll rebut this first, since it is the first and easiest to do - the capabilities of the Tempter are angelic and could manipulate reality much the way a computer programmer manipulates virtual reality...you did see Shreck, right? the talking donkey? How about the Jungle Book? I know, I know you'd have to see it to believe it...


Actually, what the Serpent tempted them with was equality with God.

What they received was the knowledge of good and evil - which I equate with self knowledge and realzation of the nature of the Tempter and what they had done - not equality with God.

The curse is the knowledge of good and evil and our sin compared to the holiness of God. Some folk can sublimate it...

Evoken

We seem to be doing a great job with natural explanations so far. That fact should tell you that God created an intelligible creation and man with the capacity to study and understand it. Why do you think that natural explanations exclude God? It should be obvious to you by now that God is not a scientific explanation. If God were a scientific explanation then you would be able to replace naturalistic explanations of observed phenomena with supernaturalistic ones.

Tell me JD, what does a supernaturalistic explanation of the respiratory system say? How does it differes from a naturalistic explanation? What relevance if any. do it's supernatural element add to our knowledge of the respiratory system?

You make a mistake by setting up God as a scientific explanation, doing so places God in the same metaphyiscal level as his creation and with that you also turn God into a place holder for our ignorance. A naturalistic explanation of observed phenomena does not exclude God and both are compatible.


Valz

jdlongmire

I am amused that grown people in the 20th century faced with their ignorance in the face of the complexity and enormity of the observable universe have come to the assertion that there is no God directing and sustaining reality...that it is all a purposeless cosmic accident...

jdlongmire

Naturalistcally explain and reproduce life from nothing.

I make God the origin of the natural world - the inextricable initiator of everything. The mechanism and processes by which this is accomplished?

I have no issue with naturalistic explainations of observable and reproducable phenomena.

Ok - when did I say I had a problem with that - it is the exclusion and rejection of the supernatural that I do have an issue with - and I don't mean ghosts and psychic powers - we are far too ignorant to make such pronouncements.

So - in the cases of origin:

Chancedidit is not a reasonable alternative to Goddidit.

- pax -

Evoken

That's it? So if we can produce life one day (even out of nothing) then you would stop believing in God? This that you are doing here is justifying your belief in God upon our ignorance and what we don't know. What will you do when something like producing life out of nothing happens? Move God to some other area we don't know about? To the unexplained?

And why do you think that the supernatural is rejected by some? Surely not simply because they are too arrogant to believe eh JD?

Can you look around the world and tell me which acts are the product of God's direct action and which are the product of chance?


Valz

BadBadBad

Then you're back into the trouble of double predestination for sure. If I have no capacity for spirituality or faith, God has destined me to hell with no possibility of redemption.

I certainly have the capacity of faith. I believed in Santa Claus just as much as the next guy.

You're jumping ahead of the timeline in my questions. First there is capacity, then there is faith. Faith in God comes later. First there has to be faith in man. Which man professing which religion should I have faith in? It seems God condemns people around the globe just for where he created them geographically. For those born in the Middle East, with Islamic parents, the right man to have faith in wouldn't be anywhere around.

Judge: To form an opinion or estimation of after careful consideration: judge heights; judging character.

Surmise: To infer (something) without sufficiently conclusive evidence

Looks like you judged me Longmire. And by judging me, you've also condemned me, and you did it based upon not only inconclusive evidence, you did it based upon no evidence.

Wow, I'm damned to an eternity of hell just because of my potential to reject God before I'm even born? Only before God creates me doesn't the mighty potter already know what capacity he's going to mold into me? God knows whether he's going to create me with a potential for spirituality and capacity for faith before he creates me. Then he creates me with either potential or no potential. You've judged me that I have no capacity. If I have no capacity, then that's double predestination.

So are you saying God creates three different classes of souls? Those with potential that God will call. Those with potential that God won't call, and those with no potential? I'm having a bit of difficulty with this in that I know you don't believe in double predestination.

Quetzalcoatl

Keep up the good work Valz:thumbs: . Your view point is refreshing. Meaningless but refreshing:devil3:

jdlongmire

That's it? That's it? wow...do it - then we'll chat.

Nah, I wouldn't stop believing in God - if you know anything about my faith and doctrine, you would know I am incapable of doing that.

No - please review my earlier posts.

There is nothing that is not the result of God's direct action - there is no such thing as chance.