Steven Carr

Only the peaceful Christian movement had such a Judas-like figure.

Not one single other violent rebellious movement ever had one informer in its ranks.

Jeffrey scoffs at the very idea of such people, so they can't exist.

Only Christianity ever had an informer in its followers. It must be true. It is in the Bible, so we have just the evidence that Jeffery is glad to see.

But despite Christianity being now proved to have had at least one informer in its ranks, 500+ followers of a recently crucified rebel could gather together , and no Christian would record any Roman reaction to such a gathering.

Ben C Smith

I never said it was totally implausible. I asked for your basis for presuming it. Over and over again on this forum readers are reminded that something is not necessarily true just because it is plausible. I agree with that. Do you?

Ben.

Steven Carr

I didn't presume it,although the New Testament claims there was a paid informer among the Christians. I just said it was very likely.

I argued that it was implausible that 500 plus followers of a recently crucified rebel gathered together without any record ever happening of what the Romans might have thought and done about such a mass gathering of a Messianic movement.

But the Romans in Acts never seem to have heard of Jesus, or that his followers were part of a Messianic movement, with all that might imply.

Ben C Smith

I beg to differ:

Ben.

Steven Carr

I stand corrected.

And that is what the Bible claims happened, at least before Jesus died.

Obviously it is not plausible, is it?

Perhaps the Romans never noticed the Christians hiring a convention hall and sending out invites to over 500 people.

As I pointed out, What else were these soldiers there for except to put down mass gatherings of followers of rebels?

Ben C Smith

Are you saying that the Bible claims that the Roman governor installed a spy or bribed an informer? Where does the Bible claim that?

(Are you confusing the Jewish priestly class with the Roman governor??)

Ben.

Steven Carr

The Bible claims there was a paid informer, which establishes the plausibility of paid informers. We can presume that the Romans had paid informers. All occupying powers do.

How do you think the Romans would keep track of potential Messianic movements?

Do you think they would ever bother to do so?

And where did these 500 plus brethren meet? In a mega-church?

Ben C Smith

Can we presume that the Romans had paid informers about Jesus? (IOW, can we generalize that all occupying powers had and have paid informers about all executed dissidents?) If so, on what is this presumption based?

Ben.

dog-on

Steven, what in the story gives you the impression that the Romans would have been particularly worried about a resurrection spoiling their execution?

As for the 500, the story says that the crowd turned against him. Hell even his bestest buddy Peter denied he knew him.

(and of course, the informer offed himself, shortly thereafter)

So, based on the story, I can't see any reason for the Romans not to have thought the issue closed.

aa5874

It seems that Tiberius, emperor at the supposed time of Jesus, used informants.

Cassius Dio Roman History 57.16.3 So, if it is supposed that Jesus was moving with large crowds of people, or attracted a large following after his death, during the time of Tiberius, it may be that there were persons who seemed to be disciples that may have been actual informers.