Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 09-02-2011, 09:17 AM

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Originally Posted by dog-on

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Originally Posted by aa5874

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Originally Posted by dog-on

I can think of a couple ways.

Well, that is precisely why I would not take your advice to stay away from Ephesians. Other people can think.

Perhaps, though I actually was referring to staying away from Ephesians when we are already discussing possible interpolations in Paul, as the Ephesians issue is pretty much conceded.

Without evidence of authorship from antiquity nothing has really been conceded. The Church has "conceded" that "Paul" wrote ALL the Epistles bearing the name of "Paul".

When a matter is under investigation all previous "concessions" may be discarded.

Even in matters of the courts, when a case is being reviewed the original verdict may be overturned because of new evidence.

Once we have any finding that the Pauline writings have been MANIPULATED then the Pauline writings become QUESTIONABLE sources.

At the present moment there is SIMPLY NO credible corroboration of antiquity for the authorship of any Pauline Epistle.

The very Church through its bishop Eusebius made claims about "Paul" that are contradictory.

1. "Paul" died during the reign of Nero. See "Church History" 3.1

2. "Paul" was AWARE of gLuke. See "Church History" 6.25.6, and 3.4.8

The "real" Paul may have been the LATE "Paul", the one who was AWARE of gLuke.

The "real" Paul may have written ALL the epistles now regarded as forgeries.

Church History" 6.25

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4. Among the four Gospels, which are the only indisputable ones in the Church of God under heaven, I have learned by tradition that the first was written by Matthew..... The second is by Mark.......And the third by Luke, the Gospel commended by Paul, and composed for Gentile converts. Last of all that by John....

dog-on · 09-02-2011, 09:20 AM

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Originally Posted by TedM

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Originally Posted by dog-on

This is a bit frustrating. I think that I have been fairly clear and consistant, having answered this question repeatedly, yet you act like I did not already answer it.

I'll repeat what I said last time:

The gospel is that we are free from the law. The mechanics of which are revealed in scripture.

Yes, and the 'mechanics' include a resurrected Messiah to enable that freedom/salvation. I get that.

What you have not been able to show is that Paul nor the other apostles Paul references have used the scriptures as their original source for claiming that Jesus was resurrected. Nowhere do they say--"I discovered the risen Jesus in scripture" or "of course he was resurrected--it says so in Isaiah 53. What other proof do you need?".

In contrast I have shown that Paul has appealed to firsthand experiences -- of a visual kind (either via dreams or visions, or direct eyewitness) for both himself and others.

You mean the passage at issue, 1 Cor 15 3-11?

Paul clearly says that God revealed Christ, in him, through the scriptures.

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Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God

About as clear as you can get, unless you bring in preconceptions, as I said earlier.

TedM · 09-02-2011, 10:02 AM

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Originally Posted by dog-on

You mean the passage at issue, 1 Cor 15 3-11?

Yes. We can't throw it out on grounds that it is 'out of character' to mention other witnesses when Paul says elsewhere that there were other witnesses and when he does NOT clearly say elsewhere that he and others were attributing the source for Jesus' resurrection to be scriptures.

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Paul clearly says that God revealed Christ, in him, through the scriptures.

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Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God

About as clear as you can get, unless you bring in preconceptions, as I said earlier.

It isn't clear. One glaring thing you have overlooked is that Paul doesn't even mention Jesus' resurrection in that passage! It is only clear to you because YOU are bringing in your preconceptions about the mystery and about what 'the message' is that Paul is referring to.

Try again.

Ktotwf · 09-02-2011, 12:57 PM

"mystery hidden for long ages past"

I wonder what Paul means there?

TedM · 09-02-2011, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ktotwf

"mystery hidden for long ages past"

I wonder what Paul means there?

Hi Ktotwf, if you are interested go to biblegateway.com and do some searches for Paul's epistles and report back what you find..

Ktotwf · 09-02-2011, 01:32 PM

Well the King James version seems to be playing the angle of Jesus as Pre-existing, eternal Logos, but that doesn't seem appropriate if John is acknowledged as being a late gospel.

It is hard to sift through everything when the Orthodoxy has had 1500 years to fit the world to their viewpoint.

TedM · 09-02-2011, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ktotwf

Well the King James version seems to be playing the angle of Jesus as Pre-existing, eternal Logos, but that doesn't seem appropriate if John is acknowledged as being a late gospel.

It is hard to sift through everything when the Orthodoxy has had 1500 years to fit the world to their viewpoint.

Yes, that is John's theology. You can choose the search feature and limit it to Pauls Epistles and then look for terms like mystery, reveal, manifest, gospel, etc. It's a pretty helpful site for finding stuff.

My take is that Paul believes the scriptures foretell the salvation of the world (and not just Jews) through faith in Jesus' resurrection and that Paul claims to have unlocked that mystery. But at the same time Paul never says that's how he came to believe in Jesus' resurrection in the first place (though it probably did contribute to his convictions).

aa5874 · 09-02-2011, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ktotwf

Well the King James version seems to be playing the angle of Jesus as Pre-existing, eternal Logos, but that doesn't seem appropriate if John is acknowledged as being a late gospel.

It is hard to sift through everything when the Orthodoxy has had 1500 years to fit the world to their viewpoint.

Yes, that is John's theology. You can choose the search feature and limit it to Pauls Epistles and then look for terms like mystery, reveal, manifest, gospel, etc. It's a pretty helpful site for finding stuff....

Well, in the Pauline writings, Jesus PRE-EXISTED.

Colossians 1

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16-17 .......all things were created by him, and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist...

judge · 09-06-2011, 07:13 AM

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Originally Posted by dog-on

Ted, I am not sure whether you are doing this accidentally, but anyway:

No, the problems seems to be that you either didn't read what Ted wrote or you didn't understand it.

aa5874 · 09-06-2011, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

....My take is that Paul believes the scriptures foretell the salvation of the world (and not just Jews) through faith in Jesus' resurrection and that Paul claims to have unlocked that mystery. But at the same time Paul never says that's how he came to believe in Jesus' resurrection in the first place (though it probably did contribute to his convictions).

"Paul" claimed he SAW the resurrected Jesus. See 1 Cor. 15.8

"Paul" also claimed Jesus died, was buried and was raised on the THIRD day according to the Scriptures. See 1 Cor.15.3

And now, Romans 10.9

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That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved...

What mystery!!!

The Pauline writings are just a pack of LIES about the resurrection of Jesus on the THIRD day for the Glory of God.

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09-02-2011, 12:57 PM	#34
Ktotwf Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,936	"mystery hidden for long ages past" I wonder what Paul means there?

09-02-2011, 01:32 PM	#36
Ktotwf Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,936	Well the King James version seems to be playing the angle of Jesus as Pre-existing, eternal Logos, but that doesn't seem appropriate if John is acknowledged as being a late gospel. It is hard to sift through everything when the Orthodoxy has had 1500 years to fit the world to their viewpoint.

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