Johnny Skeptic

I have a question for you that is off topic, but still, possibly the most important question that can be asked about God. To what extent would a loving God go in order to keep people from going to hell? If you do not wish to answer my question in this thread, how about if I start a new thread at this forum, or better yet, I already have an existing thread on this issue at the GRD forum, and the Christians did not do very well? You mentioned ancient texts, but you will find out that ancient texts will not help you answer my question. It is my position that the philosophical evidence against the nature of God easily outweighs all of the apologetic evidence.

Joan of Bark

I agree 100%, Malachi. However, Pagels must state what she believes to be true, and obviously this is what she believes. I DO think that in the long run she will cause liberal Christians to veer toward atheism/agnosticism, if my life is any example. Few travel from Bible-thumper to atheist overnight.

By the way, is Karen Armstrong in the Pagels camp?

Johnny Skeptic

What about Islam? Would you say that "On a personal level, yes, I prefer moderate Muslims and liberal reformers, but on an objective long-term level, these are the very worst Muslims, because they extend the life of Islam and that expands the scope and audience of Islam. If Islam were only fundamentalism in Muslim countries, there would be very few Muslims. Yes there are a lot of fundamentalists, but there are far more moderates."? Or, would you prefer that there were more moderate Muslims than fundamentalists if you were given a choice between to two?

In order for your arguments to make any sense about Christianity in the U.S., you would have to reasonably prove that more liberal Christians who give up liberal Christianity become fundamentalist Christians than become non-Christians. Can you do that?

What people believe is one issue, but the tangible world that we live in is another issue entirely. Fundamentalist Christians tangibly interfere with the rights of other groups of people far more than liberal Christians do. If all Christians in the U.S. were liberal Christians, physician assisted suicide would be legal in every state in the U.S., and same sex marriage would be legal in many states. Currrently, same-sex marriage is legal only in Massachusetts by order of the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts. A Gallup Poll showed that in the U.S., in the age-group category 18-29, 61% approve of same-sex marriage. It is likely that a sizeable majority of respondents were Christians, and that of the 39% who voted against the legalization of same-sex marriage, the majority were fundamentalist Christians.

A much higher percentage of liberal Christians support homosexuality, same-sex marriage, and physician assisted suicide than fundamentalist Christians do, and a much higher percentage of liberal Christians are Democrats than Republicans. In the U.S., physician assisted suicide is legal only in Oregon. President Bush tried to overturn Oregon's law, but the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in favor of Oregon. Like every other state in the U.S., the majority of voters in Oregon are Christians, but the majority are liberal Christians. Similarly, voters in New York elected two openly gay Congressmen and Hillary Clinton, and voters in Massachusetts frequently re-elect the very liberal Edward Kennedy.

WishboneDawn

Malachi151 hasn't been back to answer my post, hopefully he will answer yours. :huh: