Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dave31 · 06-20-2011, 08:56 PM

Good find Toto. Colin Turnbull apparently got his knickers in twist when Hallet mentioned pre-xian biblical parallels with Pygmy religious concepts. I have to wonder if Turnbull wasn't another Christian apologist. Like we've never heard apologists whine about the parallels before. If Hallet was so wrong and if nobody else really cared then, why did Colin Turnbull even bother to write a review at all? I mean, he brings up Superman in the first sentence? Seriously?

Wiki:"Turnbull was an unconventional scholar who rejected neutrality."

Wiki: "Bernd Heine quite thoroughly refutes Turnbull's evaluation of the Ik in a 1985 article in Africa," here.

Dr. Heine seems to think that Turnbull's guilty of the very same thing he accuses Hallet of - not being thorough. Except here Turnbull has maliciously smeared an entire Ik tribe.

From everything I've read on this guy so far, he sounds loopy, jealous of Hallet and may not be a reliable source on Hallet's work.

Toto · 06-20-2011, 09:39 PM

Turnbull points out that the pygmy group that Hallet studied was in the middle of a relatively developed area, so there is no reason to think that they had no exposure to Christian missionaries or stories. That's all that you need to take away from that review.

Dave31 · 06-27-2011, 11:08 AM

Sorry Toto, I just can't agree with you on this one. All you're doing is another hand waving dismissal without any investigation into this issue. You've simply taken one scathing review from someone who never read Hallet's book and called it settled when that is simply not the case. You have not read Hallet's book either. Turnbull is simply not a reliable source on Hallet's work. Dr. Jean-Pierre Hallet spent 60 years on and off with the Pygmies and his book makes it categorically clear that he 'had plenty of time to sort out what was original to Pygmy tradition and what may have been external influences,' as Acharya states here:

Quote:

"In his decades of observation of the Pygmies, Hallet had plenty of time to sort out what was original to Pygmy tradition and what may have been external influences. He is also certain that the Pygmies rejected the efforts of the missionaries, as they claimed they already possessed many of the germane "Judeo-Christian" or "Abrahamic" concepts but that they actually lived them and had done so for eons, long before the "First Contact" of 1870 by German explorer Georg Schweinfurth (Halley, 13)"

"As Hallet explains, up to that point, the Congolese Pygmies had been isolated from any external contact since the time of the Egyptian prince Herkhuf's expedition to their territory, some 4,000 years ago. He insists that, since that time, the Pygmies remained uninfluenced by the outside world, even expressing contempt for many of the "superior" ideas foreigners to their lands attempted to foist upon them."

Toto · 06-27-2011, 11:35 AM

Turnbull is a professional anthropologist. Hallet was an amateur and a romantic, without enough scientific method to know how to evaluate his sources. Hallet's own words indicate that the Congolese Pygmies had contact with Christian missionaries before talking to Hallet.

This is a minor point for Acharya S's overall theory, but holding on to it tends to discredit her. That's how it goes.

GakuseiDon · 06-27-2011, 01:55 PM

My bolding below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

Quote:

<snipped>... "As Hallet explains, up to that point, the Congolese Pygmies had been isolated from any external contact since the time of the Egyptian prince Herkhuf's expedition to their territory, some 4,000 years ago. He insists that, since that time, the Pygmies remained uninfluenced by the outside world, even expressing contempt for many of the "superior" ideas foreigners to their lands attempted to foist upon them."

Wait a moment. Four thousand years? Didn't you on the other thread claim that Acharya S takes the whole "Christian motifs" thingy back SEVEN thousand years? E.g. the Egyptian goddess Neith? So couldn't Egyptian prince Herkhuf's expedition have influenced the Pygmies four thousand years ago? Or would that be weird?

GakuseiDon · 06-27-2011, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Turnbull is a professional anthropologist. Hallet was an amateur and a romantic, without enough scientific method to know how to evaluate his sources. Hallet's own words indicate that the Congolese Pygmies had contact with Christian missionaries before talking to Hallet.

This is a minor point for Acharya S's overall theory, but holding on to it tends to discredit her. That's how it goes.

I don't think it is a minor point for her theory, Toto. I think she provides numerous hints throughout her work, and it might even be fair to say it is the lynch-pin to her theories.

Take her "Suns of God" for example:

In Christian Mythology Unveiled, the author recounts the Buddhist contention for antiquity of 15,000 years...:
"Christna and Buddha are identical in principle... [both] were born of virgin mothers, and each was the son of a carpenter; both suffer death by crucifixion... (page 333)
...
The association of Buddha with Krishna is so concrete that one authority, Colonel Tod... pronounced the two "conjoined"... Ancient representations of both gods depict them as black men, not only in color but also in facial characteristics and hair, etc. It is believed that such figures suggest great antiquity, considering that there appears to have been a time thousands of years ago when the black race dominated a large portion of the inhabited world.

There does appear to be a theme running through her work, from her views on 'Atlantis', the Pygmies and the 'sky people', that is quite fascinating.

A few years ago there was a radio interview where IIRC Acharya S stated that she had been in communication with the 'sky people'. I can't find this on-line any more. Perhaps Dave31 can validate this for us?

GakuseiDon · 06-27-2011, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

My bolding below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

Quote:

<snipped>... "As Hallet explains, up to that point, the Congolese Pygmies had been isolated from any external contact since the time of the Egyptian prince Herkhuf's expedition to their territory, some 4,000 years ago. He insists that, since that time, the Pygmies remained uninfluenced by the outside world, even expressing contempt for many of the "superior" ideas foreigners to their lands attempted to foist upon them."

Wait a moment. Four thousand years? Didn't you on the other thread claim that Acharya S takes the whole "Christian motifs" thingy back SEVEN thousand years? E.g. the Egyptian goddess Neith? So couldn't Egyptian prince Herkhuf's expedition have influenced the Pygmies four thousand years ago? Or would that be weird?

Here are some more comments from Acharya S about ancient advanced civilizations (my bolding):
http://net-prophet.net/nobul/sitchin/acharyas.htm

Sitchin, of course, sees a much more practical silver-working operation, an opinion with which I can concur, as I do indeed also profess that there have been at least two global civilizations of high degree tens of thousands of years ago, upon which I elucidate in the last chapter of my book on the Christ conspiracy. I am also not adverse to the notion of "alien" visitation, especially because of the legends of the ancients who claimed that their ancestors came from the Pleiades or Orion or Sirius. I am also not closed to the idea of genetic manipulation eons ago, particularly because the origins of the races is still not satisfactorily explained, nor is the evolutionary theory, nor are the bizarre anomalies found around the world, including the skulls and skeletons of weird humanoids, giants, elves, etc.

Am I the only one seeing an interesting pattern arising here?

aa5874 · 06-27-2011, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

...A few years ago there was a radio interview where IIRC Acharya S stated that she had been in communication with the 'sky people'. I can't find this on-line any more. Perhaps Dave31 can validate this for us?

Are you aware that many Christians think it is completely normal that "Paul" was in communication with the resurrected Jesus who was taken up in a cloud in the Sky?

In the NT, a "sky character", the ANGEL Gabriel, was SENT by the LORD God who lives in the Sky or Deep Space, or where there are many mansions, to Mary and many Christians, perhaps Billions, think that Mary was in communication with the Angel from the Sky.

Now, if Achyara S was in communication with "sky people" she is no different to "Paul". At least we have a "witness" that Jesus could have been one of them "sky people".

It is not uncommon for people to believe people are in the sky and that they can communicate with them.

Listen to "Paul". He will tell you what Jesus communicated to him from the sky.

Galatians 1.

Quote:

....11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is ....... by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

The Pauline Gospel is from communicating with SKY JESUS.

Toto · 06-27-2011, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Here are some more comments from Acharya S about ancient advanced civilizations (my bolding):
http://net-prophet.net/nobul/sitchin/acharyas.htm

Sitchin, of course, sees a much more practical silver-working operation, an opinion with which I can concur, as I do indeed also profess that there have been at least two global civilizations of high degree tens of thousands of years ago, upon which I elucidate in the last chapter of my book on the Christ conspiracy. I am also not adverse to the notion of "alien" visitation, especially because of the legends of the ancients who claimed that their ancestors came from the Pleiades or Orion or Sirius. I am also not closed to the idea of genetic manipulation eons ago, particularly because the origins of the races is still not satisfactorily explained, nor is the evolutionary theory, nor are the bizarre anomalies found around the world, including the skulls and skeletons of weird humanoids, giants, elves, etc.

Am I the only one seeing an interesting pattern arising here?

In all fairness to Acharya S, that is a very weird website which reprints email from over a decade ago. You have pulled out a paragraph from an email where AS is explaining why she does not follow Sitchin.

Notice the key phrases "not adverse to the notion" and "not closed to the idea". These are phrases that people use in some circles to be polite when they are explaining why they do not believe in your crazy theory.

GakuseiDon · 06-27-2011, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

In all fairness to Acharya S, that is a very weird website which reprints email from over a decade ago. You have pulled out a paragraph from an email where AS is explaining why she does not follow Sitchin.

Notice the key phrases "not adverse to the notion" and "not closed to the idea". These are phrases that people use in some circles to be polite when they are explaining why they do not believe in your crazy theory.

True enough, and I agree it should be kept in mind.

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06-20-2011, 08:56 PM	#71
Dave31 Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: USA Posts: 425	Good find Toto. Colin Turnbull apparently got his knickers in twist when Hallet mentioned pre-xian biblical parallels with Pygmy religious concepts. I have to wonder if Turnbull wasn't another Christian apologist. Like we've never heard apologists whine about the parallels before. If Hallet was so wrong and if nobody else really cared then, why did Colin Turnbull even bother to write a review at all? I mean, he brings up Superman in the first sentence? Seriously? Wiki:"Turnbull was an unconventional scholar who rejected neutrality." Wiki: "Bernd Heine quite thoroughly refutes Turnbull's evaluation of the Ik in a 1985 article in Africa," here. Dr. Heine seems to think that Turnbull's guilty of the very same thing he accuses Hallet of - not being thorough. Except here Turnbull has maliciously smeared an entire Ik tribe. From everything I've read on this guy so far, he sounds loopy, jealous of Hallet and may not be a reliable source on Hallet's work.

06-20-2011, 09:39 PM	#72
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Turnbull points out that the pygmy group that Hallet studied was in the middle of a relatively developed area, so there is no reason to think that they had no exposure to Christian missionaries or stories. That's all that you need to take away from that review.

06-27-2011, 11:35 AM	#74
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Turnbull is a professional anthropologist. Hallet was an amateur and a romantic, without enough scientific method to know how to evaluate his sources. Hallet's own words indicate that the Congolese Pygmies had contact with Christian missionaries before talking to Hallet. This is a minor point for Acharya S's overall theory, but holding on to it tends to discredit her. That's how it goes.

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