Freethought & Rationalism Archive

vid · 09-03-2008, 12:05 AM

We should also note similarities between Josephus mention of Essenes performing "river-bathing rituals" and christian baptism. It could be direct predecessor, or just "common religious meme" of that time/place.

spamandham · 09-03-2008, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

We should also note similarities between Josephus mention of Essenes performing "river-bathing rituals" and christian baptism. It could be direct predecessor, or just "common religious meme" of that time/place.

Ritual bathing was a key aspect of Judaism, and numerous ancient miquoath (ritual baths) have been uncovered all througout Israel.

The idea of such ritual bathing in a river does not seem un-Jewish.

show_no_mercy · 09-03-2008, 08:21 AM

I'm just throwing this out there, but is there any connection between the Essenes and John the Baptist?

Cesc · 09-03-2008, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

I'm just throwing this out there, but is there any connection between the Essenes and John the Baptist?

No. None other than he overall seems to fit pretty much the description of an "Essene". John the Baptist might be a historical person, he might be a symbolic person, or both.

bacht · 09-03-2008, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

I'm just throwing this out there, but is there any connection between the Essenes and John the Baptist?

No. None other than he overall seems to fit pretty much the description of an "Essene". John the Baptist might be a historical person, he might be a symbolic person, or both.

Or maybe he was invented by Mark as a returning Elijah as per Malachi's prophecy?

Zebulon · 09-03-2008, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Christian origins
Allegro believed that Essenism was the matrix of Christianity. He suggested that there were so many correspondences between the scroll texts and the New Testament — words and phrases, beliefs and practices, Messianic leadership, a teacher who was persecuted and possibly crucified — that he thought the derivation obvious. This brought him into conflict with the Catholic priests on the editing team, and with most church spokesmen, who maintained the orthodox assumption that the arrival of Jesus was the unique, historical, God-given event described in the Gospels. Allegro also started to look in more depth at the way the New Testament appeared to weave together a mix of folklore, myth, incantation and history.

So it appears that the DSS an enry point to early christian origins as the author appears have assumed, is unsupported.

And why should the Catholic priests on the editing team be considered credible or objective? Wouldn't it be expected for them to interpret the findings in light of their own religious beliefs?

Minimalist · 09-03-2008, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Two differences seem clear: The Qumram group was withdrawing from the Temple service because of errors and impurities they perceived in Hasmonean times. The Judean Christians seem to have maintained a connection with the Temple.

Also the Qumranites were ascetics/monastics, while the Christians lived in the towns and cities alongside normal Jews.

Israeli archaeologists, Magen and Peleg have challenged the entire Qumran association with the "Essenes."

http://atheism.about.com/b/2006/09/0...-community.htm

Quote:

the archaeologists, Yizhak Magen and Yuval Peleg of the Israel Antiquities Authority, reported in a book and a related magazine article that their extensive excavations turned up pottery kilns, whole vessels, production rejects and thousands of clay fragments. Derelict water reservoirs held thick deposits of fine potters’ clay.

Magen and Peleg said that, indeed, the elaborate water system at Qumran appeared to be designed to bring the clay-laced water into the site for the purposes of the pottery industry. No other site in the region has been found to have such a water system.

By the time the Romans destroyed Qumran in A.D. 68 in the Jewish revolt, the archaeologists concluded, the settlement had been a centre of the pottery industry for at least a century. Before that, the site apparently was an outpost in a chain of fortresses along the Israelites’ eastern frontier.

Roland de Vaux, the French priest who laid out this whole "Essenes-as-Monks-copying-scrolls-just-like-in-the-middle-ages" was a monk himself and may have been overly influenced by that idea.

In Josephus' long description of the Essenes in The Jewish War he first of all indicates that they lived in the cities and doesn't say anything about them sitting around copying books.

http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu...palestine.html

Quote:

They have no one certain city, but many of them dwell in every city; and if any of their sect come from other places, what they have lies open for them, just as if it were their own; and they go in to such as they never knew before, as if they had been ever so long acquainted with them.

And in Antiquities of the Jews, Book XVIII he notes:

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm

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yet is their course of life better than that of other men; and they entirely addict themselves to husbandry.

What Magen and Peleg are suggesting is that just because the scrolls were found in a cave near Qumran does not mean that there had to be a monastery of diligent scribal monks sitting nearby writing them out.

spamandham · 09-03-2008, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

What Magen and Peleg are suggesting is that just because the scrolls were found in a cave near Qumran does not mean that there had to be a monastery of diligent scribal monks sitting nearby writing them out.

Interesting indeed. Heh, just imagine if so much scholarship had been wasted on assumptions related to this, simply because some ancient client failed to show up and pay for his scroll container, with the scroll used to fit it still inside.

:devil1:

aa5874 · 09-03-2008, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

As far as I know, there are no non-apologetic credible source

It doesn't matter whether it's apologetic or non-apologetic. The only thing that matters is whether it is credible. Apologetic sources can include some highly credible material.

Can you give me a highly credible apologetic source for Judean Christians before the Fall of the Temple? That is all that matters, now.

Doug Shaver · 09-04-2008, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Can you give me a highly credible apologetic source for Judean Christians before the Fall of the Temple?

I can't give you anything contradicting your presuppositions about Christian history that you would consider credible.

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09-03-2008, 12:05 AM	#11
vid Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Myjava, Slovakia Posts: 384	We should also note similarities between Josephus mention of Essenes performing "river-bathing rituals" and christian baptism. It could be direct predecessor, or just "common religious meme" of that time/place.

09-03-2008, 08:21 AM	#13
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	I'm just throwing this out there, but is there any connection between the Essenes and John the Baptist?

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