Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Elijah · 07-08-2007, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaxxat

Quote:

The older you get the smarter you get bit? That's your problem?

What kind of smarts did those 1,000 yr. old people have?

:huh:

Don't know, but if you had a thousand years you had a lot of time on your hands to think.

07-08-2007, 08:11 PM

If you don't know what kind of smarts they had why do you suppose they were more intelligent than us?
Just because they have time to think it doesn't necessarily follow that they'll use it productively.

Nimi Isis · 07-08-2007, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadman_932

Oi, the papers you posted links to deal with differing subjects and groups, Nimi. Memory recall isn't the sole issue in cognitive losses. Regardless of the source of mental impairment, all I said was people tend to lose abilities with age. This is not refuted by your citations, which notes that MOST people tend to get impairing effects as they grow old. Old->Alzheimer's->impairment

Alzheimer's is a type of dementia and also not limited to the old.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadman_932

The idea that undiseased age cohorts are not used in studies is simply false on the face of it, since you're forgetting the obvious use of control groups and you haven't even touched on the literature in psych studies.

They don't study the control group.

Old age may make us more susceptible to diseases, strokes and any number of brain deteriorating agents but old age alone does not attack the brain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadman_932

By the way, Nimi, feel free to leave out any studies involving known disease and you'll still find that the the loss of cognitive abilities holds true. Look into things like cell degeneration, synapse degeneration, myelin loss, apoptosis, inability to regenerate neurons and "support" cells ,etc.

All those listed above will have a cause and they are the effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by me :-) its in the 1st link I posted

Few older people die with brains untouched by a pathological process, however, an individual’s likelihood of having clinical signs of dementia increases with the number of different disease processes present in the brain

Most people have multiple serious brain diseases by the time they die.

The current study compared clinical and autopsy data on the first 141 participants who have died.

Annual physical and psychological exams showed that, while they were alive, 50 of the 141 had dementia. Upon death, a neuropathologist, who was unaware of the results of the clinical evaluation, analyzed each person’s brain. The autopsies showed that about 85 percent of the individuals had evidence of at least one chronic disease process, such as Alzheimer’s disease, strokes, Parkinson’s disease, hemorrhages, tumors, traumatic brain injury or others.

Comparison of the clinical and autopsy results showed that only 30 percent of people with signs of dementia had Alzheimer’s disease alone. By contrast, 42 percent of the people with dementia had Alzheimer’s disease with infarcts and 16 percent had Alzheimer’s disease with Parkinson’s disease (including two people with all three conditions). Infarcts alone caused another 12 percent of the cases. Also, 80 of the 141 volunteers who died had sufficient Alzheimer’s disease pathology in their brains to fulfill accepted neuropathologic criteria for Alzheimer’s disease, although in life only 47 were clinically diagnosed with probable or possible Alzheimer’s disease.

deadman_932 · 07-08-2007, 08:41 PM

None of what you posted has any bearing on what I stated, Nimi. Loss of mental abilities correllates with age.

You claim that they don't study the control group in memory impairment tests? No tests are given to the control group? REALLYYYYYY? And by the way, nimi...they have and do study older people without alzheimers.

You also say, for instance that myelin loss has a cause. What is that cause? What is the cause of loss of transmitter levels ? Is this related to AGE? The hilarious part to me is that you are essentially in the position of saying "age doesn't cause wrinkles" as you point to those things that are correllated with...age.

Why did you ignore the citations that you posted that contain words that correspond to exactly what I said, Nimi?

deadman_932 · 07-08-2007, 08:59 PM

A quick search:
Low L-F, Brodaty H. Edwards, R. Kochan, N. Draper,B. Trollor,J. Sachdev, P. The prevalence of 'cognitive impairment no dementia' in community dwelling elderly: a pilot study. Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry 2004;38:725-731

Luboshitzky R, Oberman AS, et al. Prevalence of cognitive dysfunction and hypothyroidism in an elderly community population. Isr J Med Sci. 1996 Jan;32(1):60-5.

Panza F, Solfrizzi V, et al. Mediterranean diet and cognitive decline. Public Health Nutr. 2004 Oct;7(7):959–63.

Perrig WJ, Perrig P, et al. The relation between antioxidants and memory performance in the old and very old. J Am Geriatr Soc. 1997 Jun;45(6):718–24.

Ferrari E, Mirani M, et al. Cognitive and affective disorders in the elderly: A neuroendocrine study. Arch Gerontol Geriatr Suppl. 2004;(9):171–82.

Anstey KA, Low L-F. Normal Cognitive Changes in Ageing. Australian Family Physician. 2004;33(10):783-787.

Jorm AF, Butterworth P, Anstey KJ, Christensen H, Easteal S, Maller J, et al. Memory complaints in a community sample aged 60-64 years: Associations with cognitive functioning, psychiatric symptoms, medical conditions, APOE genotype, hippocampus and amygdala volumes, and white-matter hyperintensities. Psychological Medicine 2004;34:1495-1506

Anstey KJ, Hofer S, Luszcz MA. . A latent growth curve analysis of late life sensory and cognitive function over eight years: Evidence for specific and common factors underlying change. Psychology and Aging, 2003;132: 470-487.

Anstey KJ, Hofer SM. Luszcz MA. Cross-sectional and longitudinal patterns of de-differentiation in late-life cognitive and sensory function: The effects of age, ability, attrition and occasion of measurement. Journal of Experimental Psychology: General, 2003;132:470-487

Do you know what the MIS and Isaacs Set Test are used for, Nimi? Guess who MUST get those tests? Guess what establishes a baseline?

deadman_932 · 07-08-2007, 09:15 PM

Don't bother responding, Nimi. You'll just try to excuse yourself and ignore the actual argument here. Given that you claimed in the other thread that Elijah there is "your boy," then I'd expect you to continue to have the same level of meaningful content to your posts, which is to say, none.

Chuck Rightmire · 07-08-2007, 09:21 PM

Dammit Nimi and Deadman: I wish you'd get off this old age and cognitive abilities kick. As someone who at almost 72 wonders about the occasional memory failure (but I recognize it when it comes to me), this is just plain scary. We all do slow down. I like to think that even if I can't remember things as well as I used to (it's probably take me twice as long to learn a script now as it did when I was 30), I may be wiser and wisdom may be a better thing to have than smarter.

To Elijah: Yes, oral tradition may be evidence. But the best evidence is the discovery of bones that indicate the ages which you defend and they ain't out there. As I mentioned earlier, we did double our age apparently about 30,000 years ago and grandparents (those who retained their smarts) began to enable parents to go out and do more to advance the human condition. That is in the fossil record, according to recent reports. And, I might add to the programmers here that any word program that doesn't recognize "ain't" as a correct spelling ain't worth a damn.

deadman_932 · 07-08-2007, 09:47 PM

Sorry, Chuck. Hell, I'm slowing down, too. BUT, I'll be abandoning this thread now that I discovered ol' Nimi there is a "christian stripper " and comedian or something on her profile link, so no more anxiety-inducing stuff from me. Cheers!

07-08-2007, 09:57 PM

Yeah, just go check her vids, Deadman. She's hawt and quite funny.

deadman_932 · 07-08-2007, 10:13 PM

Mung: Eh, I don't want to appear less than gracious ( I am nothing if not a gentleman, dammit), so I'll leave it at "no comment."

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07-08-2007, 08:11 PM	#82
mung bean Guest Posts: n/a	If you don't know what kind of smarts they had why do you suppose they were more intelligent than us? Just because they have time to think it doesn't necessarily follow that they'll use it productively.

07-08-2007, 08:41 PM	#84
deadman_932 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Altadena, California Posts: 3,271	None of what you posted has any bearing on what I stated, Nimi. Loss of mental abilities correllates with age. You claim that they don't study the control group in memory impairment tests? No tests are given to the control group? REALLYYYYYY? And by the way, nimi...they have and do study older people without alzheimers. You also say, for instance that myelin loss has a cause. What is that cause? What is the cause of loss of transmitter levels ? Is this related to AGE? The hilarious part to me is that you are essentially in the position of saying "age doesn't cause wrinkles" as you point to those things that are correllated with...age. Why did you ignore the citations that you posted that contain words that correspond to exactly what I said, Nimi?

07-08-2007, 08:59 PM	#85
deadman_932 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Altadena, California Posts: 3,271	A quick search: Low L-F, Brodaty H. Edwards, R. Kochan, N. Draper,B. Trollor,J. Sachdev, P. The prevalence of 'cognitive impairment no dementia' in community dwelling elderly: a pilot study. Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry 2004;38:725-731 Luboshitzky R, Oberman AS, et al. Prevalence of cognitive dysfunction and hypothyroidism in an elderly community population. Isr J Med Sci. 1996 Jan;32(1):60-5. Panza F, Solfrizzi V, et al. Mediterranean diet and cognitive decline. Public Health Nutr. 2004 Oct;7(7):959–63. Perrig WJ, Perrig P, et al. The relation between antioxidants and memory performance in the old and very old. J Am Geriatr Soc. 1997 Jun;45(6):718–24. Ferrari E, Mirani M, et al. Cognitive and affective disorders in the elderly: A neuroendocrine study. Arch Gerontol Geriatr Suppl. 2004;(9):171–82. Anstey KA, Low L-F. Normal Cognitive Changes in Ageing. Australian Family Physician. 2004;33(10):783-787. Jorm AF, Butterworth P, Anstey KJ, Christensen H, Easteal S, Maller J, et al. Memory complaints in a community sample aged 60-64 years: Associations with cognitive functioning, psychiatric symptoms, medical conditions, APOE genotype, hippocampus and amygdala volumes, and white-matter hyperintensities. Psychological Medicine 2004;34:1495-1506 Anstey KJ, Hofer S, Luszcz MA. . A latent growth curve analysis of late life sensory and cognitive function over eight years: Evidence for specific and common factors underlying change. Psychology and Aging, 2003;132: 470-487. Anstey KJ, Hofer SM. Luszcz MA. Cross-sectional and longitudinal patterns of de-differentiation in late-life cognitive and sensory function: The effects of age, ability, attrition and occasion of measurement. Journal of Experimental Psychology: General, 2003;132:470-487 Do you know what the MIS and Isaacs Set Test are used for, Nimi? Guess who MUST get those tests? Guess what establishes a baseline?

07-08-2007, 09:15 PM	#86
deadman_932 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Altadena, California Posts: 3,271	Don't bother responding, Nimi. You'll just try to excuse yourself and ignore the actual argument here. Given that you claimed in the other thread that Elijah there is "your boy," then I'd expect you to continue to have the same level of meaningful content to your posts, which is to say, none.

07-08-2007, 09:21 PM	#87
Chuck Rightmire Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Billings, Montana Posts: 451	Dammit Nimi and Deadman: I wish you'd get off this old age and cognitive abilities kick. As someone who at almost 72 wonders about the occasional memory failure (but I recognize it when it comes to me), this is just plain scary. We all do slow down. I like to think that even if I can't remember things as well as I used to (it's probably take me twice as long to learn a script now as it did when I was 30), I may be wiser and wisdom may be a better thing to have than smarter. To Elijah: Yes, oral tradition may be evidence. But the best evidence is the discovery of bones that indicate the ages which you defend and they ain't out there. As I mentioned earlier, we did double our age apparently about 30,000 years ago and grandparents (those who retained their smarts) began to enable parents to go out and do more to advance the human condition. That is in the fossil record, according to recent reports. And, I might add to the programmers here that any word program that doesn't recognize "ain't" as a correct spelling ain't worth a damn.

07-08-2007, 09:47 PM	#88
deadman_932 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Altadena, California Posts: 3,271	Sorry, Chuck. Hell, I'm slowing down, too. BUT, I'll be abandoning this thread now that I discovered ol' Nimi there is a "christian stripper " and comedian or something on her profile link, so no more anxiety-inducing stuff from me. Cheers!

07-08-2007, 09:57 PM	#89
mung bean Guest Posts: n/a	Yeah, just go check her vids, Deadman. She's hawt and quite funny.

07-08-2007, 10:13 PM	#90
deadman_932 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Altadena, California Posts: 3,271	Mung: Eh, I don't want to appear less than gracious ( I am nothing if not a gentleman, dammit), so I'll leave it at "no comment."

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