Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sarpedon · 02-27-2007, 07:56 AM

I don't understand how any super-lunar bodies can be said to be 'above' any particular place on earth. The exception being Polaris. All other bodies are so far away from the earth that no matter where you go, their position doesn't change relative to you. Their apparent motions are entirely governed by the motion of the earth. How a star can be said to be 'above' a town, let alone a particular building, is beyond me.

Toto · 02-27-2007, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjf

I don't follow. Were they not fishermen?

That's part of the story. But maybe the story is a parable. Maybe they were just fishers of men to start out with. Maybe the story teller made them fishermen because pisces was already a Christian symbol.

It's like the song says - the things that you're liable to read in the Bible - ain't necessarily so.

judge · 02-27-2007, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

I don't understand how any super-lunar bodies can be said to be 'above' any particular place on earth. The exception being Polaris. All other bodies are so far away from the earth that no matter where you go, their position doesn't change relative to you. Their apparent motions are entirely governed by the motion of the earth. How a star can be said to be 'above' a town, let alone a particular building, is beyond me.

I'll give a very popular apologetic answer, found here.

Quote:

How is it that Jupiter can come to a stopped position in the heavens? Look at the diagram below. Jupiter becomes “stationary” at its times for retrogression and progression. When we look at Jupiter we see the planet normally moving eastward each evening through the fixed stars. This apparent movement is called “proper motion.” The earth, however, is moving in its orbit around the Sun faster than that of Jupiter. When the earth reaches point A, an observer would see Jupiter nearly along the same line as the earth’s own orbital movement. When the earth is traveling more or less in a direct line toward Jupiter, the planet will continue to show “proper motion.” But when earth reaches position B, it is no longer heading toward Jupiter. The faster velocity of the earth as it makes its turn to B and beyond, causes the apparent motion of Jupiter to slow down. This continues until the earth reaches C. At that point the speed of the earth in relation to Jupiter is the same as Jupiter’s. That is when Jupiter appears to become stationary within the background of the fixed stars. As the earth progresses from C to D, it has greater relative speed than Jupiter and this causes Jupiter to retrogress. The planet reverses its motion and travels westward through the stars. At D, however, the speed of the earth and Jupiter are again matched (relative to each other) and Jupiter stops its reverse motion. When D is passed, Jupiter returns to “proper motion.” This is what happened when Jupiter came in contact with the star Regulus on three different occasions in the late part of 3 B.C.E. and the early part of 2 B.C.E. The diagram below shows how this occurs.

Jupiter, being a planet wanders through the heavens, at certain times, due to retrograde motion it "stands still". Thus Jupiter is said to have stood above Bethlehem (from the perspective of Jerusalem)

Quote:

Let us now look at what happened at the end of 2 B.C. Jupiter arrived at its ordinary time for retrogression and it became stationary among the stars. But this time something unusual happened. In 2 B.C.E. as viewed from Jerusalem, Jupiter came to its normal stationary position directly over Bethlehem on December 25th. That’s right! Just before dawn (the regular time the Magi would have begun their normal observations of the heavens), Jupiter came to a “stopped” position on December 25th directly over Bethlehem as witnessed from Jerusalem. Not only that, the planet assumed its stationary position while in the middle of the constellation of Virgo, the Virgin. What a remarkable circumstance this was.

If you see my last post above it has a short video presentation put to gether by Griffith Observatory which illustrates this phenomenon.

jeremyp · 02-27-2007, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnnyboy

In fact pisces is a symbol of the early christians. So I am a bit puzzeled. As far as I know jesus birth could have happend around 7 BC, and such a constellation of stars does not happen very often, especially with htat certain astrological meaning.

The fish symbol used by Christians has absolutely nothing whatever to do with Pisces the constellation. You might as well ask why they used Flipper as their symbol.

Sparrow · 02-28-2007, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Let us now look at what happened at the end of 2 B.C. Jupiter arrived at its ordinary time for retrogression and it became stationary among the stars. But this time something unusual happened. In 2 B.C.E. as viewed from Jerusalem, Jupiter came to its normal stationary position directly over Bethlehem on December 25th. That’s right! Just before dawn (the regular time the Magi would have begun their normal observations of the heavens), Jupiter came to a “stopped” position on December 25th directly over Bethlehem as witnessed from Jerusalem. Not only that, the planet assumed its stationary position while in the middle of the constellation of Virgo, the Virgin. What a remarkable circumstance this was.

Bolding mine. Jupiter may at times become stationary among the stars, but the stars continue their apparent movement around the Earth due to the Earth's rotation. And as said above, the only star that appears stationary above any city in the northern hemisphere is Polaris. And why would any magi begin their stellar observations just before dawn? Dawn is when the light from Earth's nearest star becomes so bright as to block out the light from other stars. Of course if the magi began their observations at dusk, when sunlight fades and stars become visible again, then they would see a stationary, relative to the stars, Jupiter follow the stars across the night sky.

Personally I think the glowing angel story is more believable even though I don't believe in angels.

Of course I also seem to remember that Jesus was born at a time when shepherds had their flocks in the fields, which would not have been right after the winter solstice. Perhaps the Dec 25th date is wrong also?

judge · 02-28-2007, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow

And why would any magi begin their stellar observations just before dawn? Dawn is when the light from Earth's nearest star becomes so bright as to block out the light from other stars.?

I am not entirely sure but just before dawn was an important time for making at least some observations. For example decidng what astrological sign was "ruling" an age was decided by viewing the sky just before dawn at vernal equinox.
That portion of the zodiac immediately above the horizon as the sun rose was the sign ruling that age.
I think this is where Jupiter would have been viewed in the instance provided.

Simlarly, throughout the rest of the year the different sign would move into this part of the sky at dawn. If , as some suggest, the various signs related to seasonal activites also then dawn wouls have been an important time in general to view the sky.
Hope this makes sense.

rjf · 02-28-2007, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

That's part of the story. But maybe the story is a parable. Maybe they were just fishers of men to start out with. Maybe the story teller made them fishermen because pisces was already a Christian symbol.

It's like the song says - the things that you're liable to read in the Bible - ain't necessarily so.

Ah, I see. You were questioning which came first, the fishes or the fishers.

I don't always catch things like that...

Johann_Kaspar · 02-28-2007, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjf

I don't follow. Were they not fishermen?

People with a xian mentality understand fish as fish, fishermen as fishermen and walking on the sea as walking on the sea (go figure). No wonder those people will never understand anything about the gospels...

hoso readeth, let him understand

Johann_Kaspar · 02-28-2007, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

... Maybe the story teller made them fishermen because pisces was already a Christian symbol.

...

Sorry Toto, with all due respect, but :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

There was no xian yet when the gospel was written.

judge · 02-28-2007, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow

Bolding mine. Jupiter may at times become stationary among the stars, but the stars continue their apparent movement around the Earth due to the Earth's rotation. And as said above, the only star that appears stationary above any city in the northern hemisphere is Polaris.

Yes I see what you mean. I presume the writer meant that Jupiter wanders WRT to the position of the stars at a particular time of day (e.g. dawn). The stars will (pretty much) be in the same postion at dawn from one day to the next day, but the planet might move relatively speaking.

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02-27-2007, 07:56 AM	#21
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	I don't understand how any super-lunar bodies can be said to be 'above' any particular place on earth. The exception being Polaris. All other bodies are so far away from the earth that no matter where you go, their position doesn't change relative to you. Their apparent motions are entirely governed by the motion of the earth. How a star can be said to be 'above' a town, let alone a particular building, is beyond me.

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