Ken Brown

Hi Sheshbazzar, your experience is very similar to what I went through. Actually participating in the observance of New Moons, Feast Days, and Sabbaths teach much more than what can be gleaned from a book. I recall at one point back in the late 70s, early 80's we realized how hypocritical it was to buy and sell on the Sabbath, making others labor as you profess a cessation from work. That experience taught us a lot, and hopefully we will continue to learn. KB

spin

If you can't learn to stick to BC&H, you should stop posting until you can. The topic is biblical criticism and the related history. That hasn't got one fuck to do with the 70s and the 80s or what you personally recall. So please stop. You can always send Shesh a private message if you want to hook up and share your religious experiences.

Sheshbazzar

You lack comprehension of my position. The Gospel story and 'New Testament' writings are not a historical accounting. They are contrived religious political propaganda documents.
There was no Jesus of Nazareth, the character and the 'events' of his life are all entirely the figment of religious propaganda writers creative imaginations.
The mythology in itself is a pack of lies -if taken literally- (as Christianity has long tended to do, and some here also so do, building up their own fairy tale 'historical' reconstructions out of their pick-and-choose snippets of these propaganda mythology texts)

But that view does not entail that I find nothing of value in these texts, far from it, they are like so much brightly colored wrapping paper, but the box and its precious contents are what is concealed underneath.
Without the eye catching wrappings, (the fantastic stories and false history written on the wrapping, 'The Bible') what is wrapped up in that printed paper would have long since disappeared from human memory or access.

So the clever writers wrapped up their most precious concepts in texts of highly figurative language, and in fabulous and intriguing ethical tales, knowing that these were what appealed to shallow men, and would be preserved even by those thieves, liars, murderers, and tyrants that would continue to arise one after another to work their day of gainsaying dominion over the affairs of man. The texts simply aren't what you think they are, but the clues to what they really are are hidden in plain sight.

The measurement from the first day of the year of The Passion, to the hour of The Resurrection is exactly twenty-five atzebaoth on the qaneh ha'middah of shesh ammoth batzar, The 'measuring reed' and the chebel middah 'the measuring line' which is in the hand of Sheshbazzar.
I was marking my measuring reed off by atzebaoth long before you were even born.

But you do not at all perceive these things, nor their towtsa'ah'oth goings fourth, nor the maqtsowa'oth of their turnings.
How much of these Scriptures and texts you read, but yet have no understanding, no depth perception. You do not at all fathom the matter of the fathoms.

שש בצר העברי


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Toto

This thread can be closed if it doesn't shape up.

Please confine your discussion to Biblical Criticism and/or History.

spin

Ever thought of looking at the various forums here for a better suited place to deal with those things?

You wouldn't post a car ad in a marriage announcements column, unless you were perverse.

Sheshbazzar

I expect that if the relationship between the Gospel, the Scriptures, and the fine details of when, where, or how Paska was observed, or intense discussion of the textual details and the sequence and timing of these various events, that any such extended discussion would quickly be sent to BC&H as being the appropriate forum for the discussion of such subjects.
There is a lot of information on this subject that is not readily apparent to people who have never actually engaged in the practices. Just for one example;
How many English readers following the KJV text will understand from reading this, that this was to be an all night 'vigil' ?

The NIV does a bit better with;
The ESV does it even better;
Understanding this verse is fundamental to comprehending what various Gospel sayings and situations are relating to;

and
Which very much has a bearing upon what is being presented and what is being done by faithful managers at -the appointed time-, then, and throughout all generations.

Then again we have the story of Matthew 26:17-

The word of significance in all of this is שמרים 'shemorim' (she'mo'reem) meaning to "Keep WATCH" to diligently 'observe' The NIGHT of Watching.
The actual word שמרים occurs only ONE time within Scripture, that being in Exodus 12:42
in the expression ליל שמרים הוא 'Layil Shemorim hua' = 'This is that Night of Watchings'.
As such it particularly designates ONE special night to be ALERT to, and upon from year to year.
Even most believers sleep right through it unawares.

The word 'Shemorim' derives from the Hebrew root 'שָׁמַר used some 468 times in The Tanaka, always with the meaning of being alert and watchful.

!שמר !
WATCH!



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spin

Back at post #84 of this thread I introduced the idea that the Jewish day in much of the bible begins at dawn, while later Jewish tradition advocates that it begins at sunset. I asked:

[t2]When did the Jews start the day at evening instead of morning? When you consider Gen 1, the structure of the day is rather plain. God works during the day performing the creation. When the work of the day is over there is evening (ערב ereb = sunset) and there is morning (בקר boqer = end of night) and that completed the day. The day in Gen 1 was morning to morning.[/t2]

I introduced Ex 16:23 as an indication of the day starting in the morning:

[t2]'Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake [of the mana] and boil what you want to boil [of the quail]. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'"[/t2]

Dave Hindley couldn't see how tomorrow and morning worked together to indicate that the day started in the morning.

Perhaps I should provide a few more indicators for a day starting in the morning:

[t2]Gen 19:33-34
That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up. On the next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I slept with my father. Let us get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father."

Lev 7:15 (Cf. 22:30)
And the meat of their thanksgiving offering of well-being must be eaten on the day it is offered; they must leave none of it till morning.

Jdg 19:9
Then when the man, with his concubine and his servant, got up to leave, his father-in-law, the woman's father, said, "Now look, it’s almost evening. Spend the night here; the day is nearly over. Stay and enjoy yourself. Early tomorrow morning you can get up and be on your way home."

1 Sam 5:3
When the people of Ashdod rose early the next day, there was Dagon, fallen on his face on the ground before the ark of the Lord!

1 Sam 19:11
Saul sent men to David’s house to watch it and to kill him in the morning. But Michal, David's wife, warned him, "If you don’t run for your life tonight, tomorrow you'll be killed."[/t2]
In each of these examples it is difficult not to see the day beginning in the morning. The daughters of Lot talk in the morning of the next day about last night. The father-in-law says in the evening that the man can stay until tomorrow morning. Thanksgiving offerings are to be eaten on the same day and not left until the morning. The people of Ashdod rose early the next day. Michal tells David that he will be killed tomorrow, if he doesn't leave tonight and Saul had ordered to kill David in the morning. One would have to be rather perverse to make these somehow indicate that the day began in the evening.

stephan huller

καὶ σάββατον ἐπέφωσκεν (Luke 23:54). Our old friend Joan Taylor says the Therapeutae had the day begin at sunrise http://books.google.com/books?id=m2n...jewish&f=false

Also this:

But Jews sometimes employed the sunrise-to-sunrise delimitation of days (see Bacchiocchi, Time, 65–89), and there are ancient examples of them doing so precisely in relation to Passover (see Philo, Special Laws 2.149; Josephus, Ant. 3.248; m Pes 5:1). http://books.google.com/books?id=WPl...ise%22&f=false

aa5874

This is so scary. Spin does NOT know when a Jewish day begins and ends?? Is this a joke??

stephan huller

aa,

It's not that simple. It's like saying 'everyone knows that the Jewish year begins in September/October.' Not that simple.