Freethought & Rationalism Archive

judge · 03-20-2006, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul Invictus

In Gen 2:16-17 it states:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Pretty simple OP. I don't know Hebrew, however I am curious if this is a literal meaning (the day you eat=the actual day you will die) OR if it's some sort of figurative phrase (the day you eat=the day you will not have immortality/be severed from god, etc)

The same or very similar phrase is found in the Hebrew of 1 kings 2:36-38

This might help.

Helpmabob · 03-21-2006, 03:48 AM

Gen 2:16-17 Literal or figurative?
Fairly literally, Adam was originally created immortal, free and perfect. On eating the apple, he became mortal (i.e. subject to death) and bound by sin, and imperfect - and he knew this because he hid his nakedness.

Jack the Bodiless · 03-21-2006, 03:55 AM

Nothing in Genesis says that Adam was originally immortal. This is apologetic fiction.

Adam and Eve were thrown out of Eden for one specific reason: to prevent them BECOMING immortal.

God never wanted them to be immortal, because they would become too powerful.

Steven Avery · 03-21-2006, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

The notion that "a day is as a thousand years to God"... has no Old-Testament basis.A Hebrew "day" was a 24-hour period.

Psalms 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past,
and as a watch in the night.

John Gill shares the rabbinical commentary
along these lines as well.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

Jack the Bodiless · 03-21-2006, 04:29 AM

...Interesting. Maybe that's where the figure-of-speech came from.

Of course, all it's saying (as it does in the NT) is that the passage of time means little to an eternal God.

Maybe God meant to kill Adam that day, but lost track of time? He does seem somewhat absent-minded in Genesis (leaving dangerous plants unfenced, losing track of Abel's whereabouts etc).

jakejonesiv · 03-21-2006, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul Invictus

In Gen 2:16-17 it states:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Pretty simple OP. I don't know Hebrew, however I am curious if this is a literal meaning (the day you eat=the actual day you will die) OR if it's some sort of figurative phrase (the day you eat=the day you will not have immortality/be severed from god, etc)

It was a lie. The serpent told the truth. The Testimony of Truth of Nag Hammadi Library gets into this.

Quote:

It is written in the Law concerning this, when God gave a command to Adam, "From every tree you may eat, but from the tree which is in the midst of Paradise do not eat, for on the day that you eat from it, you will surely die." But the serpent was wiser than all the animals that were in Paradise, and he persuaded Eve, saying, "On the day when you eat from the tree which is in the midst of Paradise, the eyes of your mind will be opened." And Eve obeyed, and she stretched forth her hand; she took from the tree and ate; she also gave to her husband with her. And immediately they knew that they were naked, and they took some fig-leaves (and) put them on as girdles.

But God came at the time of evening, walking in the midst of Paradise. When Adam saw him, he hid himself. And he said, "Adam, where are you?" He answered (and) said, "I have come under the fig tree." And at that very moment, God knew that he had eaten from the tree of which he had commanded him, "Do not eat of it." And he said to him, "Who is it who has instructed you?" And Adam answered, "The woman whom you have given me." And the woman said, "It is the serpent who instructed me." And he (God) cursed the serpent, and called him "devil." And he said, "Behold, Adam has become like one of us, knowing evil and good." Then he said, "Let us cast him out of paradise, lest he take from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever."

But what sort is this God? First he maliciously refused Adam from eating of the tree of knowledge, and, secondly, he said "Adam, where are you?" God does not have foreknowledge? Would he not know from the beginning? And afterwards, he said, "Let us cast him out of this place, lest he eat of the tree of life and live forever." Surely, he has shown himself to be a malicious grudger! And what kind of God is this? For great is the blindness of those who read, and they did not know him. And he said, "I am the jealous God; I will bring the sins of the fathers upon the children until three (and) four generations." And he said, "I will make their heart thick, and I will cause their mind to become blind, that they might not know nor comprehend the things that are said." But these things he has said to those who believe in him and serve him!

And in one place, Moses writes, "He made the devil a serpent <for> those whom he has in his generation." Also, in the book which is called "Exodus," it is written thus: "He contended against the magicians, when the place was full of serpents according to their wickedness; and the rod which was in the hand of Moses became a serpent, (and) it swallowed the serpents of the magicians."

Again it is written (Nm 21:9), "He made a serpent of bronze (and) hung it upon a pole ...
... (1 line unrecoverable)
... which [...] for the one who will gaze upon this bronze serpent, none will destroy him, and the one who will believe in this bronze serpent will be saved." For this is Christ; those who believed in him have received life. Those who did not believe will die.

This group identified the serpent with Christ.

Jake Jones IV

MJ67 · 03-22-2006, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul Invictus

In Gen 2:16-17 it states:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Good evening ladies and gentlemen. After having viewed this site on a couple of occassions, I am delighted to find members who cordially interact with each other as they look to find the answers to age old questions. Hopefully, I too can contribute and learn.

Regarding the above Genesis quotes, there is one other that should be placed alongside them as they all address the same issue.

Gen.3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand and take of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

These three verses are at odds with the other, where, since v.2:17 declares there is only one forbidden tree: the tree of knowledge of good and evil, while the tree of life was approved for ingestion. Logically, this would require one to understand that the tree of life had to be eaten in order to continue living forever. Hence, we can conclude man was not made initially with the ability to live forever, but had to gain that ability through (food) sustenance figuratively speaking, as is the usual acceptance of death and sin.

This is a conundrum though relative to verse 2:17 as it pertains to 3:22. Considering the qualities of the forbidden tree, man was only allowed to live forever provided that they ate of the tree of life, but at the same time not gaining the ability to discern between what constitutes good and evil. 3:22, therefore, unequivocally implies that the Lord God and his hosts live forever because they must know both good and evil. It further provides that they are threatened by man living forever as they would become like God and hosts.

Consequently, this raises many questions regarding the inerrant nature of the scriptures; of the heavenly hosts and theological renderings of the passages-such as original sin, along with the likely possibility that the passages are nothing but redacted, revised or compendium writings which have been misinterpreted through the ages.

Forgive me if the quotation does not show properly as per the preview, I am unacquainted with this the board features but did press the quote button..

Julian · 03-22-2006, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ67

Good evening ladies and gentlemen. After having viewed this site on a couple of occassions, I am delighted to find members who cordially interact with each other as they look to find the answers to age old questions. Hopefully, I too can contribute and learn.

Regarding the above Genesis quotes, there is one other that should be placed alongside them as they all address the same issue.

Gen.3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand and take of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

These three verses are at odds with the other, where, since v.2:17 declares there is only one forbidden tree: the tree of knowledge of good and evil, while the tree of life was approved for ingestion. Logically, this would require one to understand that the tree of life had to be eaten in order to continue living forever. Hence, we can conclude man was not made initially with the ability to live forever, but had to gain that ability through (food) sustenance figuratively speaking, as is the usual acceptance of death and sin.

This is a conundrum though relative to verse 2:17 as it pertains to 3:22. Considering the qualities of the forbidden tree, man was only allowed to live forever provided that they ate of the tree of life, but at the same time not gaining the ability to discern between what constitutes good and evil. 3:22, therefore, unequivocally implies that the Lord God and his hosts live forever because they must know both good and evil. It further provides that they are threatened by man living forever as they would become like God and hosts.

Consequently, this raises many questions regarding the inerrant nature of the scriptures; of the heavenly hosts and theological renderings of the passages-such as original sin, along with the likely possibility that the passages are nothing but redacted, revised or compendium writings which have been misinterpreted through the ages.

Forgive me if the quotation does not show properly as per the preview, I am unacquainted with this the board features but did press the quote button..

You did just fine.

Welcome to II. :wave: Look around and chime in.

Julian

Helpmabob · 03-24-2006, 03:00 AM

Hi Jack the Bodiless -

Quote:

Adam and Eve were thrown out of Eden for one specific reason: to prevent them BECOMING immortal.

Yes, but originally they were mortal, as well as free from sin. Adam was created immortal. After he ate the apple, he became infected by sin and mortal. but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' [Gen 3:3].

It was as a consequence of this that Adam had to be banished from the garden. If he had eaten the immortal fruit, in his sinful state, Adam would have immortal and sinful. This would have been unacceptable to God. And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." [Gen 3:22]

Jack the Bodiless · 03-24-2006, 05:19 AM

Helpmabob:

Genesis says otherwise. Your interpretation is the invention of later apologists. Nowhere in Genesis is there the slightest hint that eating the fruit has ANY directly harmful effect: it's just that God didn't want them to eat it.

God lied, and the Serpent told the truth. That is clear from the story: when the fruit is eaten, the effect is just as the Serpent described.

What is "unacceptable to God" is that Adam and Eve are becoming too powerful: becoming "like one of us" (Genesis 3:22).

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03-21-2006, 03:48 AM	#12
Helpmabob Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: UK Posts: 431	Gen 2:16-17 Literal or figurative? Fairly literally, Adam was originally created immortal, free and perfect. On eating the apple, he became mortal (i.e. subject to death) and bound by sin, and imperfect - and he knew this because he hid his nakedness.

03-21-2006, 03:55 AM	#13
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	Nothing in Genesis says that Adam was originally immortal. This is apologetic fiction. Adam and Eve were thrown out of Eden for one specific reason: to prevent them BECOMING immortal. God never wanted them to be immortal, because they would become too powerful.

03-21-2006, 04:29 AM	#15
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	...Interesting. Maybe that's where the figure-of-speech came from. Of course, all it's saying (as it does in the NT) is that the passage of time means little to an eternal God. Maybe God meant to kill Adam that day, but lost track of time? He does seem somewhat absent-minded in Genesis (leaving dangerous plants unfenced, losing track of Abel's whereabouts etc).

03-24-2006, 05:19 AM	#20
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	Helpmabob: Genesis says otherwise. Your interpretation is the invention of later apologists. Nowhere in Genesis is there the slightest hint that eating the fruit has ANY directly harmful effect: it's just that God didn't want them to eat it. God lied, and the Serpent told the truth. That is clear from the story: when the fruit is eaten, the effect is just as the Serpent described. What is "unacceptable to God" is that Adam and Eve are becoming too powerful: becoming "like one of us" (Genesis 3:22).

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