jim_w

Not at all.

If you don't mind, I'll answer the last part first (Mark 10:31 ;-P); what's the point of praising God? Certainly not to appease him, or in case he'll strike me down. I've been to mass a few times at a Carmelite house, and they don't kneel during the consecration of the host; they believe that the New Covenant - God becoming Man - allows us to approach God with a new attitude. They emphasize a personal relationship with God rather than fear of damnation or smiting. I agree with this view, if not necessarily it's liturgical expression. I praise God not because I believe that my praise somehow encourages him to give me more stuff, but because I love Him. Life is 'nasty brutish and short', but it's beautiful and sublime too, if approached in the right way. God created me and He sustains me, as well as everything I love - how could I not praise Him?

I don't know about petitionary prayer, though. One thing worth bearing in mind is that we, as temporal creatures (and especially you guys, as avowed atheists!), can't really think outside of our little box of material welfare/success. To us, a death is a bad thing, but to God it's (hopefuly!) a return home. Even pain and suffering on Earth are fairly minor things compared to our eternal destination. So, when you look at suffering on Earth and say "how can He allow this?", you're looking at it through atheist spectacles, and seeing temporal harm/good as the be-all-and-end-all of experience. To the Christian, however, our life on Earth is but a short prelude to our real time, above or below.

post tenebras lux

I was on about the prayers of praise (if that's the right expression) that the parishioners gave to their god for their church. Basically, they thanked their god for allowing them to place some very heavy rocks above their heads (ok, ok, so it was a wall, I know that) so that they can worship him under said heavy rocks.

And then he (the sky pimp guy) let the heavy rocks fall.

Please don't try using that 'return home' bullshit, or I might just decide to help god out by going postal with some blasting powder down at my various local 'east african' evangelical churches - of which (imho) there are more than enough already in Geneva.

Imnotspecial

Sorry Jim,
I asked those questions long before I deconverted from Catholicism. I know many fellow Catholics who continually ask this question but have not drawn the same conclusion that most of us here have. Isn't even the Church admitting that suffering or evil in this world is a mystery that cannot be totally resolved?

Why does this life on earth have to be a prelude for another life to come? Everything we experience here is in our bodies. How is that experience of any value "over there"? Even meeting our loved ones across the threshold - what does that mean. We have only related to them in temporal ways? How much will I have to say to my mother and what would be of any interest to her over there?

I think the promise of heaven is as problematic as the threat of hell. I have not been able to get any meaningful answer to any of these questions - other than the not so convincing one of: "You just have to believe"!

Maybe you have something to reply that I haven't heard so far?

Thanks.

Gunter

jim_w

I doubt it very much! ;-P

I guess I meant "creaturely spectacles" there. ;-P

Of course we all have doubts, probably Christians more than atheists, in general.

Matt 22 seems to endorse this view; I think that's also generaly the Othodox view.

Have you read much about the Buddhist conception of Nirvana? It's obviously impossible for us to conceive of what heaven will be like - clouds and harps? Endless green fields and streams full of trout? Incorporeal union with God?

Who knows... not me, that's for sure. All I know is that this life, for all its wonder and joy, is deeply flawed - mainly because of my approach to it rather than any inherent property of the world or my life. The only firm grip I can get on heaven is to say there'll be no suffering there, and that hardly seems possible if we're too similar to how we are now. Yet if we're too different, we wouldn't be us.

thebeave

Hopefully, the church had insurance for "Acts of God".

It always cracks me up how Christians go through all kinds of bizzare explanations and mental gymnastics when attempting to explain why some live and others die in situations like this. To me, a good analogy for these situations is like when you randomly arrange a rack of billiard balls on a pool table, then smack it hard with the cue ball. Sometimes no balls go in the pockets (i.e. everyone lives). Other times, say, two balls go in (i.e. two people die). Other balls skim veeeerrrrry close by the hole, but don't go in (i.e. close brush with death, but unharmed). Other balls barely move at all, like the ball at the center of the rack (i.e. not effected at all). It's all a matter of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. It seems so simple and obvious to me. I just can't understand why religious people don't/won't see it this way at all.

WishboneDawn

I do see it this way. There are no explanations, to me, for why people die or live. It's just the way life is. I really don't think God sits down with his planner and scorecard and directs who lives or dies.

That's more a greek dea of fate kinda thing, no? The scissors cutting the string?

Imnotspecial

I am quite happy with your response. At least it is not the typical fundy one.

That is exactly my problem. Why promise something that is totally incomprehensible to us? I concluded that there is no such promise, but that it is only a desire in mankind to make sense out of this existence. I used to believe that there must be more to life than just endless pain and misery. A loving God, who created the universe and us could not possibly be happy with this being all of it. Now I just believe that if there is a happy ending I can wait for the surprise.

I believe there are inherent flaws to this creation. It seems to me that there are always shortages of one thing or another, right from the beginning, and that these propel us forward. I can live with that plan. But can I be sure that heaven will be without pain?

Gunter

Tigers!

Why are you so concerned about the acts or lack thereof of a being who you believe doesn't exist?

Bertsura

I can't speak for him but I'm concerned because it points out that the Christian God doesn't intervene in worldly matters. Christians claim he does but he obviously doesn't. There is no evidence at all of a God who cares personally about his creation.

thebeave

Well, you're one of the few who does. I wish I had a nickel for every Christian I've heard (personally or via the media) who thinks God hand picked them to survive some horrible disaster or accident while others died, when really all it was was random luck. Will you please have a talk with your brethern and straighten them out?!