Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 03-31-2010, 10:38 PM

For the citations you are going to have to browse Rowan William's Book on Google Books for the instances where he compares the thinking of Arius and that of Plotinus, whom Williams claims Arius follows.

There are many citations - Here is one at (p.184)

Quote:

"Arius's entire effort consisted precisely
in accllimatizing Plotinus's logic
within Biblical creationism"

J-D · 04-01-2010, 05:26 AM

If Arius was influenced by Neo-Platonism, that's no kind of evidence that he wasn't a Christian. Lots of Christians have been influenced by Neo-Platonism. Augustine was influenced by Neo-Platonism.

mountainman · 04-01-2010, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

If Arius was influenced by Neo-Platonism, that's no kind of evidence that he wasn't a Christian.

The more Arius appears to be influenced by Neo-Platonism the less Arius appears as a Christian in an epoch where Christian orthodoxy was only just beginning to be defined at a state level. And it would appear that the cited author claims that, in his opinion, Arius was greatly influenced by Neo-Platonism.

Quote:

Lots of Christians have been influenced by Neo-Platonism.

Any Christian who follows "The Holy Trinity" follows the Neo-Platonism of Plotinus. The "Holy Trinity" was not mentioned until well after Nicaea. And when it is mentioned, it follows the conceptions of "The Holy Trinity" of Plotinus, via Porphyry. On a separate issue, are you aware that the founder of Neo-Platonism, Ammonias Saccas, and his disciple Origen the Neo-Platonist, are presented by Eusebius as "Christians"?

Quote:

Augustine was influenced by Neo-Platonism.

Augustine was 6 years old when the Neo-Platonic Emperor Julian became the ruler of the entire Roman empire, and promptly legislated that Christians were to be called "Galilaeans". Augustine can tell us nothing first hand about Arius, or Constantine.

Quote:

Whelas on Augustine

From 386 to 395
Augustine gradually became acquainted with the Christian doctrine,
and in his mind the fusion of Platonic philosophy with revealed
dogmas was taking place. ... So long, therefore, as his philosophy
agrees with his religious doctrines, St. Augustine is frankly neo-
Platonist; as soon as a contradiction arises, he never hesitates to
subordinate his philosophy to religion, reason to faith!

... He thought too easily to find Christianity in Plato, or
Platonism in the Gospel. Thus he had imagined that in Platonism he
had discovered the entire doctrine of the Word and the whole
prologue of St. John."

J-D · 04-01-2010, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

If Arius was influenced by Neo-Platonism, that's no kind of evidence that he wasn't a Christian.

The more Arius appears to be influenced by Neo-Platonism the less Arius appears as a Christian

False. Just false. There is no valid correlation.

mountainman · 04-01-2010, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The more Arius appears to be influenced by Neo-Platonism the less Arius appears as a Christian

False. Just false. There is no valid correlation.

Was Arius a "believer" or was Arius an "unbeliever"?
What does the evidence suggest?

The "Porphyrian" Arius On Stage
Downtown Alexandria, 324-325 CE

“… the sacred matters of inspired teaching
were exposed to the most shameful ridicule
in the very theaters of the unbelievers.”

[Eusebius, “Life of Constantine”, Ch. LXI,
How Controversies originated at Alexandria
through Matters relating to Arius.]

J-D · 04-01-2010, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

False. Just false. There is no valid correlation.

Was Arius a "believer" or was Arius an "unbeliever"?
What does the evidence suggest?

The evidence suggests that Arius did not hold the same beliefs as Athanasius. That's not a new discovery, and it doesn't change the fact that what you said before was just false.

mountainman · 04-01-2010, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Was Arius a "believer" or was Arius an "unbeliever"?
What does the evidence suggest?

The evidence suggests that Arius did not hold the same beliefs as Athanasius. That's not a new discovery, ....

Other evidence - the Constantine Letter of c.333 CE - suggests that Constantine is charging Arius over Arius's introducing a belief of unbelief. On the basis of this evidence, it is reasonable IMO to classify Arius amongst those who were "disbelievers" or - if your prefer - "unbelievers". The evidence appears to be reasonably clear about this. Arius was not only an "unbeliever", but he published stories which promoted the notion of "unbelief". Presumeably the unbelief was in relation to Constantine's New Testament Canon. Such skeptical "unbelief" is IMO quite healthy and emminently warranted.

Constantine On Arius..333 CE

Arius introduced a belief of unbelief.
He introduced a belief of unbelief that is completely new.

He accepted Jesus as a figment
He called Jesus foreign
He did not adapt, he did not adapt (it was said twice) to God [Editor: the "new" orthodox God]
He was twice wretched

He reproached the church
He grieved the church
He wounded he church
He pained the church

He demoted Jesus
He dared to circumscribe Jesus
He undermined the (orthodox) truth
He undermined the (othodox) truth by various discourses
He detracted from Jesus who is indetractable
He questioned the presence of Jesus
He questioned the activity of Jesus
He questioned the all-pervading law of Jesus
He thought that there was a place outside of Jesus
He thought that there something else outside of Jesus
He denied the infiniteness of Jesus
He did not conclude that God is present in Christ
He had no faith in Christ
He did not follow the law that God's law is Christ
He had little piety toward Christ
He detracted from the uncorrupted intelligence of Jesus
He detracted from the belief in immortality of Jesus

He detracted from the uncorrupted intelligence of the Church
He was barred publicly from God’s church

mountainman · 04-02-2010, 12:13 AM

(1) Arius's satire is cited by Athanasius

‘The heaven,’ as the Prophet says, ‘was astonished, and the earth shuddered’ at the transgression of the Law. But the sun, with greater horror, impatient of the bodily contumelies, which the common Lord of all voluntarily endured for us, turned away, and recalling his rays made that day sunless.

[Comments: The passion of Jesus takes second place to a fit of passion by the Sun himself.
The Sun --- in Apollo and his family, and in Sol Invictus --- steals the limelight from our man Jesus ]

The Sun as "Sol Invictus" was revered more than Jesus around the time of Nicaea

The inscriptions which have been recovered from the London Mithraeum indicate that a great deal of formal reverence was given to "Sol Invictus".

Quote:

The artefacts recovered were put on display in the Museum of London.

Among the sculptures the archaeologists found was a head of Mithras himself, recognizable from his Phrygian cap. The base of the head is tapered to fit a torso, which was not preserved. Another discovery was a marble relief, 0.53 m, of Mithras in the act of killing the astral bull, the Tauroctony that was as central to Mithraism as the Crucifixion is to Christianity. On it Mithras is accompanied by the two small figures of the torch-bearing celestial twins of Light and Darkness, Cautes and Cautopates, within the cosmic annual wheel of the zodiac. At the top left, outside the wheel, Sol–Helios ascends the heavens in his biga; at top right Luna descends in her chariot. The heads of two wind-gods, Boreas and Zephyros, are in the bottom corners. It bears the inscription

VLPIVS SILVANVS FACTVS ARAVSIONE EMERITVS LEG II AVG VOTVM SOLVIT
which may be translated

"Ulpius Silvanus, veteran soldier of the Second Augustan Legion, in fulfillment of a vow, makes this altar [as the result of] a vision" [1] or "Ulpius Silvanus, veteran of the Second Legion Augusta, fulfilled his vow having become (a Mithraist) at Orange" [University of Edinburgh, Classics Department, teaching collection] (Collingwood and Wright 1965, 3).

Another view of the temple foundations.Nearby were buried heads of the Roman goddess Minerva and a finely-detailed bearded head of Serapis, Jupiter-like in his features but securely recognizable by the grain-basket, the modius, upon his head, a token of resurrection.

An inscription dateable AD 307–310 at the site

PRO SALVTE D N CCCC ET NOB CAES DEO MITHRAE ET SOLI INVICTO AB ORIENTE AD OCCIDENTEM

may be translated

"For the Salvation of our lords the four emperors and the noble Caesar, and to the god Mithras, the Invincible Sun from the east to the west" (Collingwood and Wright 1965, 4)

Huon · 04-02-2010, 12:50 AM

Arausio is the gallic name of the town of Orange in Provence, not very far from Marseilles. There are many gallo-roman ruins there, including a big theater. Of course, Arius went there and made a long speech (in gaulish), which has been recorded and will soon be translated into coptic, so that our friend Athanasius can understand it. (April 2nd, 2010 - a bit late).

mountainman · 04-02-2010, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Arausio is the gallic name of the town of Orange in Provence, not very far from Marseilles. There are many gallo-roman ruins there, including a big theater. Of course, Arius went there and made a long speech (in gaulish), which has been recorded and will soon be translated into coptic, so that our friend Athanasius can understand it. (April 2nd, 2010 - a bit late).

Monty Python's Life of Brian

Quote:

Monty Python's Life of Brian, also known as Life of Brian, is a 1979 comedy film written, directed and largely performed by the Monty Python comedy team. It tells the story of Brian Cohen (played by Graham Chapman), a young Jewish man who is born on the same day as and next door to Jesus Christ, and is subsequently mistaken for the Messiah.

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04-01-2010, 05:26 AM	#32
J-D Moderator - General Religious Discussions Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New South Wales Posts: 27,330	If Arius was influenced by Neo-Platonism, that's no kind of evidence that he wasn't a Christian. Lots of Christians have been influenced by Neo-Platonism. Augustine was influenced by Neo-Platonism.

04-02-2010, 12:50 AM	#39
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	Arausio is the gallic name of the town of Orange in Provence, not very far from Marseilles. There are many gallo-roman ruins there, including a big theater. Of course, Arius went there and made a long speech (in gaulish), which has been recorded and will soon be translated into coptic, so that our friend Athanasius can understand it. (April 2nd, 2010 - a bit late).

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