Vorkosigan

I've decided I can't. I need to take too much time with other stuff. Thanks, though.

Vorkosigan

Meatros

Okay. If you decide in the future to debate at DDO, my offer to surrogate still stands.

JonA

:frown: Shall I have to debate myself?

ApostateAbe

You feel bad because no flies are willing to get caught in your web. Let the debate expire if nobody is willing to get eaten alive, and you can propose to open the debate again anytime anyone is dumb enough to claim that Paul did not believe in a historical Jesus.

JonA

And I spent so much time weaving it too...

ApostateAbe

Maybe the best place to go is the Vridar blog. I'll bet you can find at least one sucker willing to sign up.

ApostateAbe

Here is an appropriate blog post on Vridar to comment and lay out the bait:

Heavenly Visions: the foundation of Paul’s Christianity

JonA

Is it generally agreed on by scholars that the 'person in Christ' Paul refers to in 2 Corinthians 12:1–7 is himself?

He seems to keep the 'person' and himself separate; but since looking into the matter I notice this passage regularly used by the MJers to show Paul to be describing his own experience and I am started to question my understanding of the passage.

Jon

ApostateAbe

It seems reasonable to believe that the most likely "person" would be Paul himself, but I don't think it would be relevant--either himself or someone else, it is a reflection of what Paul believes. It is the only reference to the "third heaven" in ancient Christian sources, or all ancient sources for all I know. If I were to speculate about what it means, it would be based on an ancient person looking up at the sky and seeing divisions of heaven. The clouds are nearest, and they would be the "first heaven." The sun, moon, planets and stars would be further away, perhaps all occupying the "second heaven," though they may have put the stars still further out into the "third heaven," noticing that the moon obscures the view of the stars. Either way, they would be placing God, the angels, and other unseen things of a holy divine nature in the "third heaven," that is beyond the clouds, sun and moon. Yes, it is an essential passage for MJers--does not the whole theory of Earl Doherty hinge on it?--and it is a matter of whose speculations are most probable.

GakuseiDon

Actually, we see it in 2 Enoch, Chapter 8. Like the passage in Paul, there is an association of "paradise" with the "third heaven":

http://reluctant-messenger.com/2enoc....htm#Chapter08

1 And those men took me thence, and led me up on to the third heaven, and placed me there; and I looked downwards, and saw the produce of these places, such as has never been known for goodness.
2 And I saw all the sweet-flowering trees and beheld their fruits, which were sweet-smelling, and all the foods borne by them bubbling with fragrant exhalation.
3 And in the midst of the trees that of life, in that place whereon the Lord rests, when he goes up into paradise...
...
5 And paradise is between corruptibility and incorruptibility.
6 And two springs come out which send forth honey and milk, and their springs send forth oil and wine...
...
10 And I said: How very sweet is this place, and those men said to me:
Ch 9:1 This place, O Enoch, is prepared for the righteous, who endure all manner of offence from those that exasperate their souls, who avert their eyes from iniquity, and make righteous judgment... for them is prepared this place for eternal inheritance.

But the passage in 2 Corinthians 12 is a curious one indeed:

1 It is necessary to boast; nothing is to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows.
3 And I know that such a person—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows—
4 was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat.
5 On behalf of such a one I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses.
6 But if I wish to boast, I will not be a fool, for I will be speaking the truth. But I refrain from it, so that no one may think better of me than what is seen in me or heard from me,
7 even considering the exceptional character of the revelations.

I can't remember where I read it, but someone suggested that Paul wasn't referring to himself, but was in fact being sarcastic about the visions of one of the other apostles, perhaps Peter. When read that way, certain passages jump out:

1. "whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows." Who knows? God knows! I have to wonder whether "God knows" was used similarly to how it is sometimes used today.
2. "But if I wish to boast, I will not be a fool, for I will be speaking the truth". It almost sounds like some people are boasting about visions and not speaking the truth.

Not much further on, Paul writes that he has been a fool:

2 Cor 12:11 I have been a fool! You forced me to it. Indeed you should have been the ones commending me, for I am not at all inferior to these super-apostles, even though I am nothing.
12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, signs and wonders and mighty works.
13 How have you been worse off than the other churches, except that I myself did not burden you? Forgive me this wrong!

What gets me is that Paul starts this section by writing "I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord" and then... he doesn't give us any. He refers to them obliquely, as though discussion is either not necessary or somehow socially unacceptable.

I think that Paul does infer that he himself was the one caught up into Paradise, though I like to tease mythicists with the Dohertyesque logic that if Paul knew it was himself, surely he would have mentioned his own name? So it indicates that Paul didn't know his own name.