Gullwind

Leviticus 25, for example.

Sure. I freely admit different parts of the bible can be used to justify almost any position. I don't see how this supports your "universal morality" position, though.

Funny, because Leviticus 25: 39-46 pretty clearly allows different treatment of slaves from other races.

None of which, as you said, states that slavery is immoral. Rather strange that the source of absolute morality neglects to mention whether such a thing is moral or not.

So, since you said that you could not think of a situation where slavery would be morally acceptable, and you also said that the bible does not comment on it either way, from where do you get your assessment that slavery is not moral?

Doug Shaver

What makes you so special that I should take your word for it?

You are clearly under the impression that you cannot be wrong about anything you believe. I trust you will understand if some of us think otherwise.

Helpmabob

To ignore any knowledge is to be false and narrow-minded.
I honestly don’t think you are going to be able to appreciate the presence and the work of the Holy Spirit to the extent that you are looking for unless you are prepared to experience it yourself.

Further, it is the only valid way to properly test and understand biblical prophecy. Prophecy is for believers: believing and understanding prophecy go hand-in-hand: Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. [1 Corinthians 14:22]

I didn’t write that.

In the very heart of the passage you use, God very much has the interests of his people at heart:

Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God. [Lev. 22:42,43]

but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. [Lev. 22:46]

Additionally, there is some end in sight, according to God: " 'Even if he is not redeemed in any of these ways, he and his children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee, for the Israelites belong to me as servants. They are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am the LORD your God. [Lev. 22:54,55]. These old covenant words are highly prophetic as it is later realised in the freedom of His people. In God there is the promise of freedom from the penalty of sin, as was later revealed under the new covenant. The prophetic nature of these words is therefore not to be underestimated. All prophecy comes from God and is instructive to His people.

All of us are special. The only alternatives to taking my word for it are taking someone else's word for it, trying it out for yourself, or remaining unaware (maybe there are more alternatives).

spin

Knowledge is what you can separate from "irreality". If it can't then it is not knowledge: it is worthless.

There is no point to project your desires onto me. You may prefer little green men (who come down in spaceships tell you secrets) to the real world, but you still haven't got what I have attempted to communicate with you, ie that you can't share knowledge until you can demonstrate that it is knowledge. When you talk about pie-in-the-sky stuff such as the holy spirit, a concept which you haven't given any tangibility to, you are talking like our schizophrenic example. Why do you fail to show to yourself that you are not schizophrenic?

Heroin is good for you, but you won't discover that until you start using it.

Which means that it has nothing to do with objectivity, which in turn means that you won't know if you are talking rot or not.

And silver spoons are for cocaine noses. It's your septum that will rot away.

There are three steps to knowledge,

1. believing
2. not believing
3. not being sure.

Believing gives you something to stand on. Not believing gives you perspective. And not being sure allows you to correct yourself.


spin

Jack the Bodiless

This isn't even remotely "prophetic"! It's just a rule which says that Israelite slaves are to be released in a Jubilee year.

Slaves of other nations, of course, are to remain slaves for life.

On a thread entitled "prophecy", it is somewhat significant that you haven't been able to provide a single example of a specific and verifiably-fulfilled prophecy: merely verses picked out (often regardless of context) beacuse they are reminiscent of your view of Jesus.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to Helpmabob: Is it your position that God is not able to do anything more than he has done to convince people to become Christians? Is it your position that Hurricane Katriana benefitted God in some important ways? Is it your position that Hurrican Katrina benefitted mankind is some important ways? How do you account for the fact that tangible benefits are distributed indiscrimately without any apparent regard for a person's needs or worldview? This gives many people the impression that tangible benefits are distributed entirely at random according to the laws of physics, which would surely be the case if God does not exist? It is a fact that no particular Christian can ask God for food, shelter, clothing, or physicial healing and expect to receive it, which woud surely be the case if God does not exist. All religions provide subjective spiritual/emotional benefits.

A loving God would have an interest in providing people with tangible benefits, not just spiritual/emotional benefits. James 2:14-22 say "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" And yet, God has allowed millions of people to die slow, painful deaths without any apparent benefits at all to him or to those unfortunate people. Obviously, God is a hypocrite.

Matthew 14:14 says "And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick." Matthew 15:32-38 say "Then Jesus called his disciples unto him, and said, I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting, lest they faint in the way. And his disciples say unto him, Whence should we have so much bread in the wilderness, as to fill so great a multitude? And Jesus saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? And they said, Seven, and a few little fishes. And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the ground. And he took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude. And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets full. And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children."

If the God of the Bible exists, based upon what we know about him, those Scriptures are false.

In the Old Testament, if God gave Jews the Ten Commandments, and contacted them directly through Moses, what did he give to the rest of the world?

Do you have any idea why the Bible does not clearly oppose slavery, colonization, and the subjugation of women? Are you aware that the largest colonial empire in history by far under a single religion was conquered by Christian nations by means of persecution, murder, and theft of property? I assume that if you had lived centuries ago, it is reaonably possible that you would have endorsed slavery, colonization, and the subjugation. Noted skeptic Bible scholar Dr. Robert Price told me that during the time of Jesus, a time when most Christians endorsed slavery, some Sophists and Stoics opposed it. How do you account for that?

aa5874

You were once an unbeliever, what tongues did you have as a sign?

Gullwind

And that was exactly my point. God instructs his people to treat others of his people who have fallen on hard times differently that those from "the heathen around you". Doesn't this sound like a basis for racism to you? Obviously, God does not consider slavery to be "immoral." Where do you get your justification that it is?

Leviticus 25:
44Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

45Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

46And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

Doug Shaver

That answers a question, but not the question I asked.
Yes, there are, and at least one is a lot better than any of yours.

Helpmabob

We’re identical in that respect.

I wasn’t an unbeliever in God for very long – I was deeply uncomfortable with the situation. But as I remember it, the word of God was not fully understandable to me. Like someone speaking in a foreign tongue. As such perhaps it is a sign that a barrier needs to be lifted. Only then can we properly appreciate the prophecies.

You’re extrapolating God’s whole nature from three verses in Leviticus. As you know, there are far more examples of where instruction is given on the equitable treatment of slaves.

God’s laws are timeless. He’s made clear what the timeless rules are, namely: to love God with all our heart and to love our neighbour as ourselves. Within those limits, there is probably scope in certain times in history under certain conditions for slavery to be beneficial to all, so it has not been condemned per se. As opposed to murder, which is clearly never acceptable, and is explicitly forbidden in the Ten Commandments.

On the contrary, I have provided examples from such books as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Malachi in the OT as well as Mark, John and Acts in the NT. That’s six examples there.

I have illustrated the allusion between the ancient nation of Israel in the old covenant and the kingdom of God under the new covenant. Only God could have known about this in advance. I have covered the undoubted prefiguration of Jesus in Isaiah. And I have shown that prophecy is personally verifiable.

In Johnny Skepitc, spin and Gullwind, we have three of the most eminent and wise atheists arguing the counter motion, and thus far they have come up with:

God is very evil;
the bible is bunk;
the bible encourages slavery.

Not much of a rebuttal of biblical prophecy, is it Jack?

And, given the words of prophecy here: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate” [1 Corinthians 1:19]. Prophesied 2000 years ago, now coming true before our eyes. Only by closing our eyes and sticking our head in the sand can we deny this.

Atheism is clearly moribund. It is last century’s fashion accessory. Do me a favour Jack and check your wardrobe to see if you are still wearing flowery shirts and flares.