Adamu

Hi mg01.

Understanding Planets in Ancient Mesopotamia is a good attempt at categorizing and identifying Sumerian names for planets. Although, as the paper asserts repeatedly, few astronomical texts have been found and translated, and as such our understanding is quite limited.
And yes, as far as we know, the Sumerians could only have been aware of the naked eye planets, but for my conjecture it is necessary to suspend disbelief.


Your rambling is both interesting and familiar.
Have you read K. Armstrong's A History of God?
Similar ideas we might discuss some time, but for now let's focus on Enuma Eslish as astronomical text.

Indeed Marduk is equated with Jupiter primarily, but not exclusively. This problem is discussed in the linked paper; often the gods usurp or take on the attributes of other gods, from both city-state as well as planetary gods.
The "50 names" of Marduk is an example. His elevation to "planetary god" status, I think, was a step in the direction of monotheism.

I personally think Nibiru, or Nibir was the original "lord" of the Enuma Elish. Marduk's 50th name, IIRC, is Neberu, where he established the stations of the other planetary gods, the zodiac, sun, moon etc. These are clearly references to astronomy.

Might Nibiru then, be a reference to some planetary body?

Adamu

Does Dalley suggest who the "principle" god was in the Sumerian version?
Who did Marduk replace?

Adamu

Excellent article, thanks; another fine example of how influential the first known civilization was on the rest of the world!

The number 7 is apparently based on the naked eye planets, sun and moon, which reinforces the astronomical nature of some of these myths.

mg01

My mistake, not Sumerian but Assyrian, where it was Assur rather than Babylonian Marduk.

mg01

You may also want to look at "History Begins at Sumer: Thirty-Nine 'Firsts' in Recorded History (or via: amazon.co.uk)" by Samuel Noah Kramer. It's considered dated now but still quite interesting.

Darklighter

I agree, that was an excellent article. Explains why the number seven is so significant in so many religions. I was aware of the "seven visible gods," part but for some reason I never made the connection to why it's so significant in the Bible (Seeing as how the Bible never really gives an explanation as to why. It just 'is' the number of perfection; 'God's number' as opposed to the number of the gods.). Given the historical and cultural context, it makes perfect sense. I really found the sabbath "day of rest" part interesting. Never knew that.

mg01

Great article. Thanks for the link. I've actually been looking for something discussing primary sources with regards to ancient connections between astronomical phenomenon in connection with deities. Interesting to see the link too between the moon and Sin, the associated deity, and that he/she/it was depicted as a horned bull and referenced as "the fruit that grows by itself". It's common to run across moon/bull refrences in passing and intereristing to see such an ancient concrete reference. It also mentions Sin known as "lord of wisdom" where in the moon god in Egypt, Thoth, was also associated with wisdom.

In speculating on the moon/wisdom connection, if you take the "Cambellian" interpretation, perhaps both are related to the idea that within the understanding of the death/birth cycle of the the moon there is wisdom to the nature of life? The whole bull sacrifice ritual revolves around this, the bull is the moon and the fire is the sun. By making it a ritual you are participating in the event and to a degree encouraging the return (rising smoke, plesant aroma) of the moon after it's three day absence.

I have read it. Along the same lines there is another book, "The River of God" by Riley which is a briefer summary of the topics covered by Armstong with a bit more focus (at least in the early parts) on the more semitic connections. In contrast, where she is an ex-nun he is an active pastor, and at the end of each chapter he interjects his own editorial about how amazing the process by which the one true god of the universe revealed himself to us using the process of history. Sort of a "theistic-history" idea. Just goes to show how diverse opinions concerning the divine can be, that despite the obvious relationships and associations that show the myths of the Hebrews as no different than their neighbors they are still regarded as special. The appeal of some sort of eternal bliss following death is just as attractive now as it was in antiquity.

With regard to the Enuma Elish as source material, I'd agree with spin that it's not appropriate to think of it in a direct sort of way. Instead it's better to regard Gen 1 as representive of the same tradition that also inspired the Enuma Elish. The difference though is the fact that while yes they are likely to be as many as 14 or 15 centuries apart, the Hebrew version is simply recasting the same outline with their God as the responsible agent. In that sense it's not so much copying. It's a shame we don't have any other semitic creation accounts, such as from Ugarit, to get an idea of what the tradition was like in and around Judah. Still, as P, Gen 1 is 4th or 5th century and as partly inspired as inclusion by Babylonina tradition which we know within that time the story was still well known as it's discussec by the Greek Berossus in the 3rd century.

Darklighter

I know the moon is often associated with the female. So, given all the points I've bolded, I wonder if there is a connection to the origin of the word 'Sin'. Specifically, the original "Sin" in the Bible and aquiring knoweledge (wisdom) from eating the fruit (which is of course blamed on the woman)? The parallels (woman/moon, fruit, "Sin", and wisdom) seem too striking to be a coincidence. :huh:

mg01

You're drawing that connection through the similar English translations. My impression would be that there's no relation. In as far as I've seen it's difficult to even find an equilivient concept of "sin" in the Christian sense in Hebrew. Like many other concepts it's something that has been retro-actively impressed upon the text and brought forward in some instances though selective translation.

The moon as male/female is a function of both time and geography. I do think there is a trend though that over time the early male personification did begin to lean toward female.

Darklighter

Thanks! Thats why I asked. I've ran into other things before that 'sound' like they might be connected, but yeah, gotta be careful of jumping to conclusions. Anyway, it's all very interesting even without that connection.