Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ichabod crane · 07-03-2004, 12:54 AM

Magdlyn is correct that the general concensus is that Marcion was not a Gnostic. In particular, his view of salvation was quite different to the Gnostics. However, it is also obvious that he influenced them considerably. The problem is that the term "Gnostic" can have a narrow and a broad meaning (e.g. do you count the Manichaeans?)

Ted Hoffman · 07-04-2004, 02:39 AM

GDon:

Quote:

Show me the primary sources that indicate that the early Gnostics believed that Jesus never walked the earth. I'm not trying to be difficult about this. All I'm asking for is the evidence.

Is this question settled then?

GakuseiDon · 07-04-2004, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob Aliet

GDon >>>Show me the primary sources that indicate that the early Gnostics believed that Jesus never walked the earth. I'm not trying to be difficult about this. All I'm asking for is the evidence.

Is this question settled then?

If there isn't any evidence, then yes.

Rick Sumner · 07-04-2004, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob Aliet

Link not working but I can't wait.

That's because there's nothing there yet, I've just registered the URL.

It will be more of a response than a review, having begun as a review for Peter Kirby's website, and then shaping itself into what will probably be a book length rebuttal. What I have thus far is a series of articles, none of which are complete as yet, though I am to finish them (as well as several others) within the next few months.

The problem is one of motivation. In all candour, I've experienced, and continue to endure, increasing difficulty taking Doherty seriously enough to bother writing lengthy responses to him. I used to think he presented a good argument. I'm no longer persuaded that he does so.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Magdlyn · 07-05-2004, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Show me the primary sources that indicate that the early Gnostics believed that Jesus never walked the earth.

Is this question settled then?

If there isn't any evidence, then yes.

Just got back from 3 days in Vt. If anyone has more access to sources, please help with this. I do not have access to university libraries at my disposal. Plus I do have a life, job, kids, house, etc., to take care of. I am not a scholar, historian, or theologian of any formal training. This is just a hobby of mine.

Maybe in days to come I will get lucky and find something ("primary sources") on the net.

I admit I made the assumption that the gnostics in general did not necc "believe" in a historical Christ man, either as flesh and blood or some kind of spirit being. I was perhaps thinking too much like a Jungian, ie: Christ as an archetype, an ideal of how to relate to God and/or Pneuma.

I get the idea that some gnostics believed in Christ as a flesh and blood man, with a real wife and kids, who ended up in Europe.

Perhaps some do not believe in a "real" figure of Christ at all.

And some are in between.

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07-03-2004, 12:54 AM	#21
ichabod crane Regular Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 262	Magdlyn is correct that the general concensus is that Marcion was not a Gnostic. In particular, his view of salvation was quite different to the Gnostics. However, it is also obvious that he influenced them considerably. The problem is that the term "Gnostic" can have a narrow and a broad meaning (e.g. do you count the Manichaeans?)

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