Mentalepsy

Here's another question.

The claim has been made that God does not "force salvation on us." You have to become a Christian to be saved; otherwise you go to hell. Hell is the default, and you have to seek out heaven, because God won't force you to go there (although he has no problems forcing you to go to hell against your will).

Now here's my question. Why isn't heaven the default, instead of hell? Why didn't God make it so that you have to seek out hell in order to go there? If I were God, I would be smart enough to realize that people would rather not be burned alive for eternity if they can at all avoid it (of course, if I were God, I'd do a lot of other things differently, too). If, for some unfathomable reason, heaven and hell were the only two possible choices, and it was not possible to let people decide after they die where they want to go, and it was not possible to provide actual evidence during their lifetimes for heaven and hell, I think they would probably prefer having heaven forced on them rather than hell.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by JTurtle
Look at it this way, someone has to pay for your sin.

Or some animal, if you go by the old testament.

And Jesus paid too high a price.

I take it he wasn't the smartest baby in the sandbox. Otherwise, he would have paid the correct price.

So believe that............................

Well, that's convincing. I now believe in a long line of dots.

Mad Zur

Oh. I see.

Still, though... Care to... you know... actually refute my argument? You know, the rest of the post you quoted...? As in... demonstrate why my conclusion is invalid instead of just say it is without backing it up at all?

Magus55

No, God gives you two choices. To spend eternity with Him, or without Him. Pick one.

Magus55

No, his point was, other religions are mans way of reaching God. They are rules and rituals done in order to win God's favor, and attempt to be good enough to be in His presence. Christianity is God's way of reaching man. No good works or rituals can win us His favor, because our works are not good enough for a perfect being. So God offered mercy instead. In other religions, man does all the work to reach God. In Christianity, God does all the work to reach man. Which to me makes a lot more sense since its kind stupid to actually think a fallible human can do enough "work" to become perfect.

Jade

"You can either spend eternity with your nose up my ass, or you can spend eternity with my ass on your nose. Pick one."
-- God

Magus55

First of all, I doubt you would be capable of denying God when standing in front of Him. I doubt anyone on Earth would actually stand before God, knowing for a fact that if they don't follow Him, they will end up in Hell, and reject Him. Its not human nature. People would do anything to save themselves.

And, it seems to have a lot less meaning after you already know for a fact God's real. Its like, oh hi God, like sorry I completely despised you, rejected you, sinned against you, and thought you were a jerk, but now that I know for a fact you're real and I was a complete moron, I think i'd like to be in Heaven now. There is no trust, no love, and no value in a such a situation. It just doesn't seem right.


Well since you aren't God, you don't actually know the reason behind His actions, so you can't assume He isn't doing exactly what He should be doing. From your perspective, of course, obviously God is wrong because humans are superior... right?


Because thats the only thing God deemed acceptable enough to allow as payment for sin. That may be a cop out to you, but to Christians, God is perfect, and as such that was the right choice.

See above on knowing for a fact God exists.


You miss understand. Faith saved people in the past just like it does today. But despite Jesus dying around 30 A.D, his death was always the plan to save humanity from sin, even before He came to the Earth.


Not necessarily. This boils down to what God deems appropriate and merciful. Kinda like how a mentally unstable person can't be held criminally responsible because they don't know what they are being tried for. But again, only God knows who actually fits in this category ( and its probably very rare).

Matrioshka_Brain

What about dead babies? Stillborn?
The mentally handicapped?
Alzhimer's (sp?) patients?
The missionarily challenged?
Those whom couldn't distinguish Xianity from all the other mythologies out there, and/or by the nature of the reality it created, couldn't figure out it's ('his') existance?

Where were their choices?

Magus55

You're kidding right? Heaven is pure and holy. Humans sinned, which is why they aren't fit to go to Heaven. God can't look on sin. The penalty for sin is spiritual death, or breaking the bond between humans and God. Hell is the prison for those eternally separated from God. God can't make Heaven be the default because humans are covered in sin and can't enter Heaven.

cjack

You've got that right. And that's what it would take to convince me of this God you speak of. Why is that too much to ask of a Supreme Being?


Maybe not to you, but I would think that a God that took someone in even after all that rejection would indeed be a being of infinite mercy and patience...unlike the Christian God.