Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 02-01-2007, 10:57 AM

NIV:

Quote:

Romans 8:
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

footnote reads: m Romans 8:38 Or nor heavenly rulers

Can anyone shed light on this? What does this say in Greek?

Ben C Smith · 02-01-2007, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

What does this say in Greek?

From Romans 8.38:

...ουτε θανατος ουτε ζωη ουτε αγγελοι ουτε αρχαι ουτε ενεστωτα ουτε μελλοντα ουτε δυναμεις....

Literally, beginnings, but better translated as principalities or such. Same root as in 1 Corinthians 2.6-8, different word.

Ben.

Malachi151 · 02-01-2007, 12:49 PM

So how does this possibly relate to 1 Cor 2 then?

Quote:

6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Is the word different because of usage? It seems to me that even if not the exact same word, it still displays the same type of idea and still enriches our understanding of Paul's view of a real populated and affected by heavenly beings who take action and affect the world, both at the surface and in layers of a physical heaven.

Ben C Smith · 02-01-2007, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Is the word different because of usage?

No, I would say it is used pretty much the same as the related word in 1 Corinthians 2.6-8.

Quote:

It seems to me that even if not the exact same word, it still displays the same type of idea and still enriches our understanding of Paul's view of a real populated and affected by heavenly beings who take action and affect the world, both at the surface and in layers of a physical heaven.

There is no dispute that Paul believed the world is populated by spiritual beings. But to call demons (or what have you) heavenly may not be accurate; I think evil spirits were supposed to mainly operate in the air.

Ben.

Malachi151 · 02-01-2007, 01:25 PM

Interestingly, my NRSV Study Bible says:

Quote:

38 ...neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers....

Note on 8:38:

Quote:

Angels contrasts with rulers, who are probably earthly powers (cf. 1 Cor. 15.24; Gal 4.8-11; Col 2.15). Powers are supernatural beings; see Mt 24.29; 1 Pet 3.22

So here the NIV is positing the "rulers" as heavenly, whilst the NRSV says they are likely earthly. Of course no one knows, but its quite interesting....

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