Chris Weimer

Too bad Piscez, because that just happens to be true. The agricultural societies worshipped female goddesses of the Earth. That's why out of all the pantheon's of the Greeks and Romans, Demeter and Ceres were always the most honored. See Eleusian Mysteries. Early Hebrews represented the Mother Earth in, arguably, Ashera. Until they adopted Yahweh and became tribal warriors, they also practiced goddess worship.

Chris Weimer

Oh wow, all that and I hadn't even gone to the website. Looks like they back me up.

Nostalgic Pushhead

Sounds like wishful thinking to me. Sure, lots of godesses were worshiped, but I doubt the sweeping generalization that Goddess-worshipping societies developed civilization and then the big bad patriarchy appeared and started oppressing them.

I would like to see evidence that "virtually all" societies worshipped a female diety, to the exclusion of male dieties. And what time period are we talking about? Must be pre-Greek, because I don't see any major societies after that that fit the description. And if they're pre-Greek, we don't have very much to go on. I dare say that any such claims are baseless.

And who are the "northern invaders"?

Nostalgic Pushhead

Okay, lets see the evidence.



Doing a quick google, according to here, Ashtoreth is just another name for Astarte, a Phoenecian/Canaanite goddess of fertility. Checking other sources, she's always a female. So this is completely a non-issue.

So there's no word for Goddess. And a word meaning "Gods" is translated as "God". This is hardly evidence that "Many times "Gods" in the Bible refers to goddesses"?

I was not aware that snakes, serpents, trees, and horns were ancient goddess symbols.

Rats, too bad the site moves into bible-bashing I agree with, I was having fun...

Nice Squirrel

There is a belief among some people that there was a period of goddess worship and peace. All over Europe and the Middle East archaelogist found little clay figurines of what appears to be a pregnant woman. The actual purpose of these figures has never been discovered, but people count the prevalence of them as representing a religion, and goddess worship.

There was also another theory rolling around and I think Joseph Campbell sudscibed to it. There was supposedly a long period of peace among the goddess worshippers until the warrier male diety (hunting?) worshipping burst in from central Asia and brought war with them. The trouble with this story is the archaelogical evidence does not support this. Sites where the goddess are found during the peaceful time also have weapons and defensive structures.

<snip>

Nostalgic Pushhead

I'm not, at least no more than any other proposed deity.

Its not the Goddess i'm worried about. Its the absurd idea that the planet was a Goddess-worshipping utopia until the big bad Patriarchy suddenly took over and oppressed women. Its laughable, and not backed up with any evidence. Its just feel-good revisionist feminist BS.

I don't want to get into a speil about feminism, I'd rant for hours. But to put it succintly- I agree with it in theory, but stuff like this retarded historical revisionism and the hysterical persecution complex turn me off it.

That's sort of a big "trouble" to me.

As for the female figurines- so some people worshipped a goddess. So what. They worshipped all kinds of individual gods and goddesses. Give me any evidence at all that there was one "Goddess" who was worshipped by most people, above all other dieties. And that they lived in a equalitarian utopia until the big evil patriarchy took over and began suddenly oppressing women.

I'm aware Abrahamic religion is incredibly abusive to women; but you don't have to make stuff up to be angry about it!

lulay

so piscez (the ignorer) and nice squirrel, let me try and understand where you are coming from. is this close? and i really DO want to understand cause you seem uite passionate about this

That you believe men have ALWAYs have the upper hand? have always loved and carried out war? that never in the time of our species' history has there been any kind or egalitarianism between men and women? That an idea/conecpt/mythical understanding of the birthing woman didn't give images of a Mother Earth and a Womb from which we all came from and returned?

i am just trying to dog you is all

Nostalgic Pushhead

Yup. Men are physically stronger, thus they always have had the upper hand. Its unfortunate, but its a historical fact. Men didn't just suddenly say "Hey, lets start oppressing women!" Obviously some cultures are more oppressive than others, and some probably not at all; but men have historically had the advantage, which I think is due to physical strength.

I'm pretty sure human nature was the same ages ago. We will always fight. I think now that we are technologically advanced, physical strength means little, and the former upper hand men had is going away. I do agree with feminist principals, I just think they are very often misguided. Instead of inventing a stolen past, I'm looking to the future. Just because things went a certain way doesn't mean they have to now.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that all cultures were a feminist utopia until the big bad patriarchy decided to start oppressing women.

Nice Squirrel

Lulay,
Oh not at all. I wish it were true that there was a period of peace and prosperity and that it was broken by the patriarcal warrior gods. But the evidence for this simply doesn't exist.

Now to address your questions directly:

No, men have not always had the upper hand it depends on the individual culture. But there wasn't a time where women exclusively held power over a such a large domain for so long.

No there are peaceful cultures - !Kung. Also depends on what is called "war" does ritualized war where parties go out and taunt one another and somebody might get killed, but honors are won through taunting and acts of bravado and bravery count as war?

There has been egalitarianism in some ways, but more often a division of labor which is seen as more equitable.

Yes, very much so, but my point is that we don't know what those figurines actually were used for. If we had no writing, archealogists could say the same thing about CDs in 3000 years. "Those people worshipped the shiney disc god who'se love would shine down upon them until the evil iPodders attacked." Without written record we can only speculate about the statuettes use within the society.

I don't disagree with your points, just that the physical evidence doesn't match the myth of a great good age that was destroyed by a "mysterious warrior race" as has often been described.

lulay

you say piscez that men have alwys had the upper hand strength-wise

errr, have you seen Madonna's arms lately? bet she could whup yo arse boy....! hehe

yu know, it makes me laugh this idea of how 'strong' men are in relation to women. have you eer seen women carrying fidgiting little kids with one arm while they go about doing shopping and such? have you tried it? it takes muscle, and stamina. i truly think women are both physcially and mentally stroger than mean. if not least for putting up with generations of bullshit from the macho upstarts, and STILL having the shoppin done, and kids fed etc etc.
in other words, DON'T underestimate them

have you heard of Catal Huyuk? thats archaeology and as far as i know shoes signs of the peacefuol egalitarianism i am speaking of

also your terms 'feminine utopia'...again isn't this a MALE philosophical ideal ala Plato. as far as I am aware, the women-men cultures understood rather natrual complimentarity--between life death, good evil, rather than some ideal utopia. from my reading of myth and of the patriarchal cooption of that understanding, it is the patriarchal male who seems utopia in the clouds or transformed Earth--(christianity)
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