Ray Moscow

I think the Jonah theme is something Matthew added to the Markan narrative, but this "3 days and nights" business didn't fit well with Mark's placing of the crucifixion the day before the Sabbath (and the day after the Passover meal).

However, John (more or less) fixes this in his gospel by moving the crucifixion to the day before the Passover.

Ray

John Kesler

Previous thread:What Does Paul Mean By "According To Scripture" in 1 Cor. 15

gstafleu

Now isn't there another thread going on that seems to indicate that the only books that were translated as the Septuagint into Greek at the time were the Pentateuch? So which passages in the Pentateuch could Paul be referring to?

Gerard Stafleu

Cege

Thank you. I'm reading there now.

TedM

I recall reading that the Jews waited for 3 days before declaring someone officially dead. Therefore, the part of the scriptures alluded to in the phrase "raised on the third day according to the scriptures" may have only been the "raised" part--ie such as the Psalms that says his body will not be decayed or something to that effect.

The dying for sins according to scripture perhaps is alluding to Isaiah 53.

It is interesting to me that whether or not the epistle writers were referring to a mythical Christ or a historical Jesus, even though they reference the OT a lot, there are few specific references to the OT for support of the very critical theology of dying for sins and being aised from the dead.

ted

Steven Avery

1 Corinthians 15:3-4
For I passed on to you as most important what I also received:
that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
that He was buried,
that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Paul was adept in the Hebrew language and scriptures. No difficulty referring to anything in the Hebrew-Aramaic Tanach. Toto is just making a par-for-the-course unwarranted assertion, another dubious opinion morphed to an inaccurate 'mod-factoid'.

Paul also referred to the Gospel of Luke as scripture to Timothy so there is no difficulty in the Corinthians verse having an NT referent component.

We had some threads on this in 2005-2006

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...=1#post2951072
A question about Paul
An answer about Paul and scripture

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=146779
Does Paul quote Luke as Scripture?

As for what was being referred to from the Tanach I will extract from an ancient discussion on Xianity combined with the John Gill commentary in a separate post or two.

Shalom,
Steven

Steven Avery

Hi Folks,

John Gill's commentary on the Corinthians verse is so rich and deep that it is hard to (extract much) and do the commentary justice.

John Gill does not work directly with the NT application mentioned above although he does mention the words of Jesus in Matthew 12:40.

I recommend reading the whole section, which I am excerpting and I will add many of the scripture verses.

http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/...inthians15.htm

how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; that is, of the Old Testament, the writings of Moses, and the prophets, according to Scripture promises, Scripture types, and Scripture prophecies; particularly Genesis 3:15 Daniel 9:24

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head,
and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression,
and to make an end of sins,
and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most Holy.

which declare that his heel was to be bruised, that he should be brought to the dust of death, should pour out his soul unto death, and be stricken and cut off in a judicial way, and that for sins; not his own, but for the sins of his people, in order to atone for them, procure the pardon of them, take them away, make an end of them, and abolish them ...

and of his making his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, Psalm 16:10

Psalms 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;
neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

and which had their accomplishment through Joseph of Arimathea, a rich man ... Jonah's being three days and three nights in the whale's belly was a type of it, and according to which our Lord himself foretold it, Matthew 12:40.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly;
so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

and that he rose again the third day according to the Scriptures: that he should rise again from the dead was very plainly hinted or expressed in several prophecies which speak of the rising of his dead body, of its not being left in the grave so long as to see corruption; and which therefore could not be in it more than three days; and of his lifting up his head after he had drank of the brook by the way; of his ascension to heaven, and session at the right hand of God, which suppose his resurrection, Isaiah 26:19.

Isaiah 26:19
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise.
Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust:
for thy dew is as the dew of herbs,
and the earth shall cast out the dead.

And that he should rise again the third day, is not only suggested in Hosea 6:2

Hosea 6:1-3
Come, and let us return unto the LORD:
for he hath torn, and he will heal us;
he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days will he revive us:
in the third day he will raise us up,
and we shall live in his sight.
Then shall we know,
if we follow on to know the LORD:
his going forth is prepared as the morning;
and he shall come unto us as the rain,
as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

but was prefigured by the deliverance of Isaac on the third day after Abraham had given him up for dead, from whence he received him, in a figure of Christ's resurrection; and by Jonah's deliverance out of the whale's belly, after he had been in it three days. The Jews take a particular notice of the third day as remarkable for many things they observe {e}, as "of the third day Abraham lift up his eyes, Genesis 22:4 of the third day of the tribes, Genesis 42:18 of the third day of the spies, Joshua 2:16 of the third day of the giving of the law, Exodus 19:16 of the third day of Jonah, Jonah 1:17 of the third day of them that came out of the captivity, Ezra 8:15 of the third day of the resurrection of the dead, as it is written, Hosea 6:2 'after two days will he revive us, in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.'"

From which passage, it is clear, that they under stood the prophecy in Hosea of the resurrection of the dead; and it is observable, that among the remarkable third days they take notice of, are the two instances of Isaac's and Jonah's deliverances, which were Scripture types of Christ's resurrection. From which observations they establish this as a maxim {f}, that "God does not leave the righteous in distress more than three days." That Christ did rise again from the dead, in pursuance of those prophecies and types, the apostle afterwards proves by an induction of particular instances of persons who were eyewitnesses of it.

{e} Bereshit Rabba, sect. 56. fol. 49. 3. {f} Mattanot Cehunah in ib.

Shalom,
Steven

Steven Avery

Hi Folks,

The Xianity discussion we went a bit into Isaiah 53 (alluded to by Gill above) and Psalm 22.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Xianity/message/14249 - 09/2004
Re: 1 Corinthians 15:3,4

.. the verse is beautiful and sensible even limiting it to the Tanach, simply to the prophetic sense ...

Take the most well-known verse, utilized frequently in the NT .. Isaiah 53. The clearest window we have for pre-Jesus Jewish understandings of Messianic prophecy is the Targumim, and Targum Yonathan starts the section, 52:13, very clearly with "Behold, my servant Messiah will prosper" and the text clearly shows an interpretation of the servant being Messiah (although the "suffering" aspect is largely left to Israel for her sins). Other rabbinical exegesis and midrash, early and even some in the rabbinical period of 1000-1500AD , does apply the suffering to Messiah.

Similarly there is lots of early exegesis showing Hebraic understandings of Psalm 22 in particular as referencing Messiah. This is true even in the Midrash of about 500 AD, where you might expect such interpretations matching Messianic expectations to have been expunged from rabbinical thought, due to their application in Christian apologetics.

This is simply auxiliary to the John Gill commentary above which is more directly attuned to the OP.

Shalom,
Steven

gstafleu

Could well be. Do we know for (more or less) sure?

Gerard Stafleu

Steven Avery

The testimonies of his studying under Gamaliel and speaking of Hebrew to a crowd of Jerusalemites are clear in the NT in Acts and epistles. As well as his Hebraic exegesis and background, though of course that will open floodgates of debate so it is simpler to take the former first. Those who are hostile or suspicious of every word in the NT of course will not "know". Luke and Paul himself however both make this clear, Peter affirms Paul's letters as scripture, so we can know this is true if we have a simple respect for the NT writings.

Shalom,
Steven