Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 01-30-2013, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The author of VC appears to have used a generic term "therapeutae" that was also used for different other groups of worshipers.

All the other different other groups of worshipers were from the pagan Egypto-Graeco-Roman milieu they were not Jewish.

The generic term "therapeutae" had been previously associated with the pagans and the pagans alone.
...

But Philo also uses the term therapeutae for the Jewish priests in the Temple.

From Joan Taylor with David Hay, Astrology in Philo of Alexandria’s De Vita Contemplativa

Quote:

As I have explored elsewhere, the term qerapeutai/ is a cultic one, used of those attending to gods within temple contexts; it does not refer to ‘therapists’ – as we might suppose – but to those who ‘look after’ the divine within places of holiness.⁸ Philo himself uses the term for priests and Levites in the Jerusalem Temple, a group which are then given an allegorical meaning indicative of all who truly worship the Divine in their lives.

...
[footnote 8] Taylor, Jewish Women Philosophers [of First-Century Alexandria: Philo's 'Therapeutae' Reconsidered] (or via: amazon.co.uk), 55-65.

Toto · 01-30-2013, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

let's start with the basics.
Do you agree that the term "theraputae" is a generic term, comparable to "priest" that does not refer to a specific religion? If not, why not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto, post 312

The subject of this thread is a group known as the Therapeuts, described in a work attributed to Philo.

In my opinion, the "basics" here, is the OP, in which Pete inquired about evidence regarding the link between groups of Greek pagans called Therapeutae, and the medical practitioners loyal to Asklepius, including Hippocrates, "father" of medicine, born in the town dedicated to Asklepius, as described by Clive-->THANKS Clive!!

If we are to approach this by starting with the "basics", then should we not remain in harmony with the OP?

...

The OP is clearly confused on this point. How can we clear up this confusion, other than by pointing it out?

mountainman · 01-30-2013, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

..

The reason appears to be based on evidence for monastic settlements, and its lack, before the 4th century. . . .

Yes, that and the unwillingness of these good Protestants to think that Catholic monasticism had earlier roots in antiquity.

Evidence and the unwillingness of these good Protestants to think that Catholic monasticism had earlier roots in antiquity without any evidence for this claim. The evidence for this claim starts in the 4th century unless you are reading Athanasius's "Life of Anthony" (published c.360 CE).

Altertumswissenschaft = “science of antiquity”. Thanks.

This would be an EVIDENCED BASED “science of antiquity”.

stephan huller · 01-30-2013, 03:39 PM

You almost make it seem you are listening

aa5874 · 01-30-2013, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The author of VC appears to have used a generic term "therapeutae" that was also used for different other groups of worshipers.

All the other different other groups of worshipers were from the pagan Egypto-Graeco-Roman milieu they were not Jewish.

The generic term "therapeutae" had been previously associated with the pagans and the pagans alone.
...

But Philo also uses the term therapeutae for the Jewish priests in the Temple.

From Joan Taylor with David Hay, Astrology in Philo of Alexandria’s De Vita Contemplativa

Quote:

As I have explored elsewhere, the term qerapeutai/ is a cultic one, used of those attending to gods within temple contexts; it does not refer to ‘therapists’ – as we might suppose – but to those who ‘look after’ the divine within places of holiness.⁸ Philo himself uses the term for priests and Levites in the Jerusalem Temple, a group which are then given an allegorical meaning indicative of all who truly worship the Divine in their lives.

...
[footnote 8] Taylor, Jewish Women Philosophers [of First-Century Alexandria: Philo's 'Therapeutae' Reconsidered] (or via: amazon.co.uk), 55-65.

Your source appears to contain errors. There is no evidence at all that any apologetic writer before Eusebius who ever made De Vita Contemplativa famous.

Josephus, Pliny the elder, Pliny the younger, Tacitus, Suetonius, Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Aristides, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Clement of Rome, Clement of Alexandria, Origen did NOT mention a single thing about Philo's Therapeutae.

Astrology in Philo of Alexandria’s De Vita Contemplativa

Quote:

Philo’s treatise, De Vita Contemplativa is famous for providing a description of a group that function as a point of comparison for both early Christians and Essenes.

Philo, Josephus, and Pliny, three 1st century sources for the Essenes, never ever claimed the Essenes were Therapeutae or Christians.

Toto · 01-30-2013, 03:41 PM

Philo is some sort of evidence for this early group. The linguistic evidence places VC in the first century, not the 4th.

I don't want to insist on this - he could have made it all up. Joan Taylor has some good reasons why he didn't. But it's always possible.

But your reasons don't hold water. You have so far not acknowledged the use of the term therapeutae to refer to Jewish and other religious devotees.

Give it up, Pete. You made a good try, you got other people to look at the topic. But you don't have a case.

mountainman · 01-30-2013, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

We have basic assumptions that monasteries are related to modern ideas of libraries, healing and caring.

This thread is getting dumber and dumber. The specific concept of 'monastery' is only foisted onto the discussion because of Eusebius.

Pay attention.

See the thesis of Lucius, supported by Zeller, Harnack and Schtirer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philo in Early Christian Literature by David T. Runia

How could Philo’s description of his Therapeutae so closely resemble what we know about early Christian monasticism,
although this movement does not appear to commence until some 3 centuries later? As we shall see, this is a real puzzle
which even today has not led to scholarly agreement on all points.

Quote:

It's like playing battleship.

Which authority is telling us what has been hit?

Oh of course. You are the authority. How could I have forgotten?

mountainman · 01-30-2013, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

..

Furthermore it may be reasonably inferred that the Pachomian movement provided alternative shelter and community living arrangements - at least in part - for the 4th century class of pagan "therapeutae" whose temples were destroyed by Constantine, and who's traditional service and presence in the empire for centuries was effectively made redundant overnight. (For an example of some evidence for this inference see the discussions between Hermes and Asclepius in the Nag Hammadi codices.) ..

That depends on what you are smoking.

Would you please demonstrate why it is that you consider this inference (and a mention of supporting evidence) to be outlandish?

Thanks.

Toto · 01-30-2013, 03:56 PM

Schtirer should be Schürer - u mit umlaut.

<frustrated proofreader tears hair out>

Toto · 01-30-2013, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

That depends on what you are smoking.

Would you please demonstrate why it is that you consider this inference (and a mention of supporting evidence) to be outlandish?

Thanks.

There's no supporting evidence. You decided what you wanted to prove and looked around for anything that could bolster your case.

The thing is, I think you could come up with something valid and interesting if you could just get off your hobby horse. Revise your basic thesis when the facts don't fit it instead of ignoring contrary evidence.

And what in particular in the Nag Hammadi codices is relevant here - some discussion between a mythic and a possibly mythic character?

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01-30-2013, 03:39 PM	#434
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	You almost make it seem you are listening

01-30-2013, 03:41 PM	#436
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Philo is some sort of evidence for this early group. The linguistic evidence places VC in the first century, not the 4th. I don't want to insist on this - he could have made it all up. Joan Taylor has some good reasons why he didn't. But it's always possible. But your reasons don't hold water. You have so far not acknowledged the use of the term therapeutae to refer to Jewish and other religious devotees. Give it up, Pete. You made a good try, you got other people to look at the topic. But you don't have a case.

01-30-2013, 03:56 PM	#439
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Schtirer should be Schürer - u mit umlaut. <frustrated proofreader tears hair out>

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