Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 01-18-2013, 12:51 PM

Another point. I was discussing the likelihood of the Jewish synagogue in Alexandria surviving with some 'archaeological trace' with a professor once who specialized in that field. His opinion - couldn't happen. Why? First the revolt under Trajan. Wiped out anything Jewish. Second, the building patterns in Alexandria and Egypt generally. Any stone was taken and reused to build something else. Also changing water levels both in the lake, in the Delta and in the Mediterranean. Where on earth would you start to look for this 'archaeological record' and how would you know you found it?

mountainman · 01-18-2013, 01:02 PM

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Originally Posted by Toto

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Originally Posted by mountainman

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Originally Posted by Toto

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Originally Posted by Pete

Not knowing whether Philo gave them this name, or whether these people called themselves therapeutae, is it therefore not all the more reasonable to go out into the classical citations to determine who else referred to themselves or others as therapeutae in antiquity?

You have not made a case for this.

I have provided specific citations that have been supplemented by the list of citations to the mention of "therapeutae" in antiquity. The case is made in the citations to the evidence. How else can the case be made?

You have not shown that there is any reason to question Philo's description of a Jewish sect. Perhaps he made it up, but he made up a Jewish sect.

I have cited the WIKI article on the portfolio of Philo's supposed writings and many elements of the work "VC" do not correlate with the same elements in the rest of Philo's writings. Philo may therefore have not written "VC". This itself represents grounds to question the description in VC of a Jewish sect.

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We have hundreds of references in classical pagan sources who all agree that the therapeutae were not the attendants of a Jewish god, but rather that they were all the attendants of a Pagan god. This is not positive evidence in support of a Jewish sect of therapeutae who were everywhere in the empire.

You have not provided any reference that says that there were no Therapeutae in Judaism.

I have provided positive evidence that suggests very strongly that the large proportion of the [pagan] society of antiquity associated the therapeutae with [pagan] temple attendants and assistants.

If you want to argue that there are other evidentiary sources that support the idea (outside of "VC" written by Philo an unknown author and expressly preserved by the Centralised Monotheistic State Christian Church) that the therapeutae were a Proto-Christian Jewish sect, then it is up to you to cite that evidence.

mountainman · 01-18-2013, 01:09 PM

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

Where on earth would you start to look for this 'archaeological record' and how would you know you found it?

Try Yale Theology College or its exhibitions.

Ask to speak with the tour guide.

Clivedurdle · 01-18-2013, 01:09 PM

On archaeology, does it not all depend? Kos has a huge Crusader fort that reused tons of Greek and Roman stones from a hundred yards away, all quite recognisable with a bit of work and expertise. They can even track back where it came from in a building and where it was dug up originally, what sorts of tools were used on it...

And there might be some stones somewhere with Jewish inscriptions, even though they are under sand and under water. Radar etc is showing up very interesting stuff all the time.

outhouse · 01-18-2013, 01:10 PM

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Originally Posted by tanya

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Originally Posted by Philo, on Contemplative life

(13) But then, out of their yearning after the immortal and blessed life, they esteem their mortal life to have already ended, and so leave their possessions to their sons or daughters, or, in default of them, to other kinsmen, of their own free will leaving to these their heritage in advance; but, if they have no kinsmen, to their comrades and friends. It makes sense that they who have received the wealth which sees from a free and open store, should resign the wealth which is blind to those whose minds are still blinded. (14) The Greeks sing the praises of Anaxagoras and Democritus, because, smitten with the desire for wisdom, they gave up their properties to be sheep-runs. I, too, admire these men for having risen superior to wealth. Yet how much better are those who, instead of abandoning their possessions for the beasts to eat, ministered to the wants of human beings, kinsmen or friends, aiding them in their need, and raising them from helpless poverty into affluence! For, indeed, their much-praised action was ill-considered, not to use the word "mad," of men whom Greece admired. But the conduct of these is sober, and exhibits the perfection proper to the highest wisdom.

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Originally Posted by Toto

You have not shown that there is any reason to question Philo's description of a Jewish sect. Perhaps he made it up, but he made up a Jewish sect.

How do you claim the Therapeutae as Jewish? Philo himself, acknowledges that they are Greek.

Am I missing something here?

God-Fearers and Gate Proselytes, had worshipped Judaism for generations.

I'm sure they viewed themselves as Jewish after being raised and taught, only Judaism.

stephan huller · 01-18-2013, 01:11 PM

And the bottom line is - what justification can Pete provide for rejecting the Philo's identification of Therapeutae as related to the Essenes a Jewish sectarian group? Nothing or perhaps at most that pagans were called 'therapeutae.' But Philo distinguishes the Jewish therapeutae from paganism in the first two paragraphs. So the bottom line is that there is no logical reason for doubting Philo or perhaps better - accepting Philo's report that there were therapeutae but assuming they were pagans in spite of what Philo says.

Either there were therapeutae at Lake Mareotis or there were not.

If there were therapeutae then were are accepting Philo's testimony on some level.

If we are accepting Philo's testimony about the existence of these therapeutae what possible reason is there to doubt his identification of them as related to the Essenes and thus a Jewish group?

mountainman · 01-18-2013, 01:12 PM

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

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Presenting evidence contrary to popular propositions is not self serving.

No. That's not what is at stake here. It is about honesty. Philo writes words on a page and you don't see them because it goes against your faith. .

I have made reference to the possibility that the Philo who authored VC was not the same Philo that authored the rest of Philo's works. See post # 148

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You operate like an evangelizing Christian but only in reverse.

Do you believe in the god Asclepius, son of Apollo, son of Zeus Stephan?

Do you really have a pagan heart Stephan?

Hey, at least I can spell Stephan.

stephan huller · 01-18-2013, 01:14 PM

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On archaeology, does it not all depend?

No. My mother for instance has always told me about the manner in which she escaped from Paris with her mother 'on the last train' to Switzerland. I don't know that it was the last train but I believe she went to Switzerland. There is an elaborate story about how she - a four year old girl and Swiss citizen - managed to save my grandmother (her mother) who lost her citizenship when she married her father, a German. I don't know if it's all true but I assume the gist of it is. I don't need archaeological evidence for any of it. And on and on it goes.

The question inevitably comes down to. Why would someone lie about this? What is their motivation? What is more likely - it being a falsehood or a truth? Eusebius citing a story which doesn't mention Christianity as proof of Christianity from a Jewish author who thinks he is making reference to a Jewish group related to the Essenes is a convoluted 'counterfeiting.' Why wouldn't Eusebius simply have had Philo say the group was Christian?

stephan huller · 01-18-2013, 01:15 PM

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I have made reference to the possibility that the Philo who authored VC was not the same Philo that authored the rest of Philo's works.

But why is any of this necessary? The author is Jewish nonetheless. Read the fucking material from beginning to end. This is a Jewish group.

Clivedurdle · 01-18-2013, 01:20 PM

Tom Holland, In the Shadow of the Sword, starts his book describing the death of Yusuf As'ar Yath'ar at the hands of the Xian Kingdom of Ethiopia in 525 CE. He was the last Jewish king ever to rule in Arabia.

I think the problem is that Judaism has always and still does encompass a very wide range of beliefs and actions. I think we are looking here at a basically Greek group with Jewish flavouring.

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01-18-2013, 12:51 PM	#161
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Another point. I was discussing the likelihood of the Jewish synagogue in Alexandria surviving with some 'archaeological trace' with a professor once who specialized in that field. His opinion - couldn't happen. Why? First the revolt under Trajan. Wiped out anything Jewish. Second, the building patterns in Alexandria and Egypt generally. Any stone was taken and reused to build something else. Also changing water levels both in the lake, in the Delta and in the Mediterranean. Where on earth would you start to look for this 'archaeological record' and how would you know you found it?

01-18-2013, 01:09 PM	#164
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	On archaeology, does it not all depend? Kos has a huge Crusader fort that reused tons of Greek and Roman stones from a hundred yards away, all quite recognisable with a bit of work and expertise. They can even track back where it came from in a building and where it was dug up originally, what sorts of tools were used on it... And there might be some stones somewhere with Jewish inscriptions, even though they are under sand and under water. Radar etc is showing up very interesting stuff all the time.

01-18-2013, 01:11 PM	#166
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	And the bottom line is - what justification can Pete provide for rejecting the Philo's identification of Therapeutae as related to the Essenes a Jewish sectarian group? Nothing or perhaps at most that pagans were called 'therapeutae.' But Philo distinguishes the Jewish therapeutae from paganism in the first two paragraphs. So the bottom line is that there is no logical reason for doubting Philo or perhaps better - accepting Philo's report that there were therapeutae but assuming they were pagans in spite of what Philo says. Either there were therapeutae at Lake Mareotis or there were not. If there were therapeutae then were are accepting Philo's testimony on some level. If we are accepting Philo's testimony about the existence of these therapeutae what possible reason is there to doubt his identification of them as related to the Essenes and thus a Jewish group?

01-18-2013, 01:20 PM	#170
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Tom Holland, In the Shadow of the Sword, starts his book describing the death of Yusuf As'ar Yath'ar at the hands of the Xian Kingdom of Ethiopia in 525 CE. He was the last Jewish king ever to rule in Arabia. I think the problem is that Judaism has always and still does encompass a very wide range of beliefs and actions. I think we are looking here at a basically Greek group with Jewish flavouring.

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