foxjazz

Biff, I don't think Poule will ever really understand the destruction that their missions do to other cultures.

I for one am grateful for your work Biff as you work to clean up missionary harm on other cultures. Other cultures must stand on their own, and in order for the modern world to appreciate them, all aspects must be documented objectively.

Thanks Biff,

Fox

Toto

I applaud Pouye's efforts to do good and respect traditional cultures (although I am not sure that all aid is done through Christian organizations - the Red Cross is not explicitly Christian, at least.) I often wonder how anyone who takes their Christianity at all seriously is not doing similar social work.

I have a longstanding interest in traditional cultures and folklore, and I think it is too simplistic to blame missionaries or communists for erasing traditional culture. Traditional culture changes. We don't do the same dances our grandparents did, or listen to the same traditional music, or wear the same sorts of clothes. Modernity and industrialization have wiped out much of traditional European culture, which only survives through the efforts of academic researchers and folklorists. The early Christian church in Europe adapted a lot of pagan culture (including Christmas, or course) which saved it from extinction, but much later, Anabaptists and their ilk tried to convince European peasants that dancing was immoral, and some of their traditional dances were lost. Stalin tried to save traditional cultures as museum pieces for his own political purposes, but the latest generations of Russian and Eastern European kids prefer rock and roll.

This is not to say that there are not particularly egregious crimes involving invaders wiping out native cultures, such as the Spanish conduct in California. But the question in general is much more complex than that. A lot of traditional culture is not worth saving - for example foot binding. The people involved have to decide what parts of their culture are going to be saved, and how.

I have a friend who has visited Tibet, who says that their traditional culture is alive - the Chinese communists do not want to provoke unrest by destroying their traditions - but it is corrupt and anti-scientific and has the effect of keeping the Tibetans in poverty, so I think she would rather that it be destroyed (or at least confined to museums.)

foxjazz

The reason I blame them is that they interfere with local nature. However if you were to extend nature to the missionaries.

As it happened through the ages, cultures and societies (micro societies) must live or die on their own merit. When we interfere in said societies, in many cases such as the Fore, we utterly destroy the people of those societies, they must leave if they want to survive or find other means by which to live.

Even poverty stricken societies have happiness and value in their livelyhood. But to interfere with those values thinking that our values are better, or thinking that this is a better way is abusive.

Just because Western societies have a different view and the view changes from generation to generation, doesn't mean its better or worse than the views before. It is only when we create conflict into those views that we devalue and disrespect the culture of other micro societies.

IMHO, if a society affects ours in a drastic way like WTC, then I am for utterly destorying the source of that society in order to teach the societies around them that they shall fall when they touch a more powerful society.

My views are completely in line with nature, and allowing nature to rule our planet.

Fox

Amos

Except that nature doesn't have a mind to rule with. Every tribe will have a mythology and no tribe can survive without one.

Minor tribes will have minor mythologies to prove that the mythology is really the hearthbeat of the mythology and that out of the mythology their life is taken (our bible is very clear on this).

There is nothing wrong with improving their mythology but to do that we must overshadow theirs with ours and to overshadow theirs we must incorporate ours and then let them decide what should be dropped . . . or be replaced, or amended to serve the tribe better for their own good.

Footbinding is onse such practice which really is just the constant reminder of female subservience in a male dominant society. Our head covering is the same (it is our parallel) and sure as hell would have it we now find that within 50 years into our modern gender equal society we are either unwilling or unable to reproduce our own -- and most of us that still can have minor nurture problems with major consequences in the end.

Postcard73

Here's the new thread split off from the original discussion. I'll look over the new threads in a while and check to see if I accidentally put any posts in the wrong spot...

Pouye

Postcard73!!! (Your efforts are appreciated!)





You have no idea .

Yes, poverty stricken societies find happiness and value in the midst of suffering... but they are also not animals who want to stay left alone in their cages. Most societies as you have described (usually minority groups) want to move "upward". They want better health care. They want cleaner water supplies. They seek -- and often they are met with intolerance, prejudices, and governments who don�t care about their �rights�. Until you know a little more (have experience working in minority groups around the world), I would suggest you might want to educate yourself before talking about something you know nothing about. I�ll give you a real life example:

The group I work with has very low educational levels, and hence they are easy targets for shady businessmen who would like nothing more than to exploit their resources. A foreign country bid was actually given to these traditional PNG landowners. They wanted to literally mow down their entire rainforest of hardwood (strip cut, not selective logging...). The company began to survey the area and soon they drew up an �agreement�. The people couldn�t understand the agreement (written in �high English�) so they brought it to me. I about FELL OVER! I chaired a meeting and translated the document for them. The people discussed the document and decided that their homelands and hunting grounds would be destroyed if they agreed to the terms. On their own initiative they asked me to help them draft up a petition and help them to get educated on forest preservation and management.

Bad missionary... Bad, Bad!

Rock

Ps. On the flip side, there is incredible truth that the infiltration of Western (and Eastern) views into the developing countries (formerly termed, Third-World) has caused a lot of harm. Much of this harm has been brought about through the spread of troops during the World Wars (at one time there were more foreign soldiers on the soils of Papua New Guinea then there were natives!) etc. Many missionaries have, no doubt, been another grievous source for the infusion of ideologies and influences (both negative and positive) into cultures all around the world. Businesses and companies in search of riches and resources have also brought their share of trouble into �primitive� societies. However, to think that you are just going to build a fence around the �poor jungle people� and let them alone... well that is just fantasy! In my opinion, caring people who can help them adjust to the rapid expansion of the modern world will do far more good than leaving them for �nature� to decide...

Amos

And a "high English" interpreter and you can't read my writing?

Biff the unclean

Odd how the intentional destruction of their religious beliefs--to be replaced by your religious beliefs-- never gets mentioned

Amos

He's not a preacher. He translates the contracts for them (high English) and helps them get a better deal.

Are you suggesting perhaps that he is a fox in sheeps clothing? because they are so weak and "easy targets?"

Pouye

Not odd...

For one, I am there IN RESPONSE to a local church which has been functioning there for a long time...

But besides that, I have some interesting stories on my hard drive which depict their (mostly former) religious belief system. Do you honestly think, Biff, that all belief systems are equally "good"?

Since the introduction of Christianity (not by myself...) they no longer torture and cannibalize their enemies. In fact, they have made peace with the surrounding people groups who have been their traditional enemies (something they have told me their ancestors would have never done...). Women are now beginning to experience freedom from the many religious taboos which kept them in constant bondage and even killed some of them. A cruel system called "pay back" (killing a person from one group to make up for a killing in another) has almost vanished among the group of people I work with. The contant fears of evil spirits which used to rule them has given way to hearts of thanksgiving for nature and the beauty of their land. Their children roam freely in the bush, not worried about being attacked for "pay back". One elderly man in our tribe said this:

"I'm not sure if God is white or black. In fact, I would say He might not exist except for the amazing changes I've seen in my own people. We killed and ate the first missionary who came here many years ago. I just cringe when I think of all the bloody killings which could have been prevented if we had not done that. Up until recently [talking a about the Gospel], we never considered the lives of anyone outside of our language group as intrinsically valuable."

Rock