Newton Joseph

ACHILLES HEAL
By New 10.
When some catastrophe befalls those who believe in God, have you noticed that instead of
losing their confidence and faith in God, their confidence and faith in God is strengthened.
This is also true of those who are confronted by opposing views of religion and God in
particular. These people have to excerpt more of their energy which is spent to reinforce and
bolster their beliefs to thwart any logic or reason from their Achilles Heel of doubt.

Starboy

Great, now go convince the 120 million evangelicals in the US.

Starboy

CX

Duh. Because that's where all the cool shit is. Sex, rock music, mind altering drugs, Jack kerouac, Ozzy (okay he's not dead yet but he will be soon), Jimi Hendrix, Tom Paine. I mean honestly. Who wants to spend eternity with a bunch of uptight right wing religious types singing hymns all day?

TheBigKahoona

I find this whole thread a little amusing. As I write this I am staring at an ad advertising an Atheist only dating agency, right next to that one is an ad which speaks of how the Theists are taking over America, "Which america do you believ in?" "AMerica the Vengeful Xian nation" or "America home of the free and the brave." THe Irony of it all is that within a few clicks of my mouse I could be looking at the ads in the Xian run forums where there are numerous ads from "Christian dating agencys" and ads which say things like
"Were outnumbered, but we have something they don't have.....Yahweh!"

THis whole issue is extremely amusing because both sides believe they are besieged by an oposing army of either DEMONIC CHILDREN OF SATAN, or CRAZED BLOODTHIRSTY CRUSADING RADICAL FUNDAMENTALISTs.

Being a Christian, I can't exactly speak for the atheists but I have read this forum and others and their are ignorant biased idiots on both sides. Here are a few examples i'm sure youv'e seen in real life.

Ignorant Xian: (THinking to himself) "Atheists are so ignorant! I'm going to go on a few forums and prove them all wrong with a really long winded essay ,full of circular logic, which proves the existence of GOd. Then I'll ask them the ultimate question, "IF GOD didn't create the universe who did?" Therefore logically they'll be forced to admit Xianity is right.


Ignorant Atheist: (THinking to Himself) "Xians are so ignorant! I'm going to go on a few forums and prove them wrong with a few random "contradictory" passages from the Bible.
Jesus said "I am the Good Shepherd." AND "I Am the true vine" Shepherds can't be vines, thats impossible! Therefore, logically, Xianity is false.

And countless others.

In my opinion I think both sides should do a little less whining and a little more debating!!! LOL

Mageth

The debates on these fora, on both sides, are generally a lot deeper than either of those caricatures, TheBigKahoona.

Mageth

Faith, I respect your beliefs, and believe it or not am not "judgmental" of you for holding those beliefs. But I, apparently unlike you, believe it's desirable to provide you with my "take" on your beliefs. Why? Because I think we should all be willing to critically examine our beliefs (not saying that you don't already do that), and to accept criticism of our beliefs. And, having once held a position very similar to your beliefs, and now having stepped "outside" those beliefs (thanks in large part to someone who was willing to criticize my beliefs), I think I may have some valuable insight for you.

An interesting position, considering Jesus' "Great Commission".

And note that, if you feel you have particular insight, or even some good evidence to support your beliefs, I am quite interested in hearing them. I'd like to know why you believe. If I'm wrong, I want to know!

Yet you would seem to agree that God for some reason finds those that lack belief "inferior" for some reason.

Yes I did. And, interestingly, I started from a "worldview" quite close to yours. And again, if you think you have good reason/evidence to support your beliefs, why would you not be willing to share it? I'm not saying just tell me why you think I'm wrong; I'm saying tell me why you think you're right. (That is really what I meant by "selling", BTW). The Gospel message, you know.

OK, so you believe that God judges non-believers "inferior" and, thus, destined to a suboptimal eternity. You apparently accept this judgment. And you apparently seek to avoid any personal responsibility for this judgment by claiming it's not your judgment, but the judgment of God (though one which you agree with).

Indeed, if that is the case, I would not be particularly upset, but yet it seems that that is still a suboptimal outcome for my life; heaven would be preferable. There are consequences for non-belief; I will suffer in some way (whether through "hellfire" or merely separation into a suboptimal eternity).

And yet, your image of what hell might be does not seem to jibe with what the NT describes; even Jesus' descriptions of hell portray it as much more than simply "separation".

Thus, I'm a bit puzzled as to why a Christian would seem so reluctant to "sell" me on the way to optimize my eternity. If you truly believe in heaven and hell, why aren't you trying to do everything you can to convince those that don't believe?

The soft image of hell you present, along with your avoidance of direct participation in "judgment", indicates to me that you, like many modern Christians, are bothered by the harsh, judgmental, and vindictive image of God portrayed in the Bible. You seek a kinder, gentler God. Unfortunately, that does not match up with what's portrayed in the Book from which you get your conception of God.

Don't take me wrong; that's all fine by me. I much prefer "moderate" Christians like you, or even "liberal" Christians, and surely don't want to convince you to become a fundamentalist. But the contradictions and cognitive dissonance such a "moderate" stance causes scream out to me (I know, because I was there once). The Bible seems to make no allowance for a "moderate" form of Christianity. Indeed, the Bible portrays the "lukewarm" as being "spewed" out of God's mouth.

To hold a moderate or liberal position, a Christian has to ignore, or do some serious reinterpretation of, much of scripture. As I said, I once was there, starting from a pretty fundamental stance, going to a moderate position, and eventually to a liberal position. It's one short step from there to non-belief. And it's a wonderful step; the contradictions and cognitive dissonance disappear overnight. One can step "outside" the scripture and the religion and recognize it for what it really is - a human-invented mythology (including concepts such as sin, a judgmental God, a plan of salvation, and a heaven and hell) that was, perhaps, applicable to, or at least workable in, a culture 2000 years ago, but that no longer works for our culture. A strong indication of that is the move to moderate and liberal forms of the Christian religion, a move that is a necessary attempt to adapt the religion (mythology) to the modern world.

MachineGod

I think SOME Christians are hostile to anyone who challenge thier faith.

But there may of course be a number of other reasons. That's just the on I experience.

Starboy

Many Christians are hostile to the thought that there are people who might challenge their faith. They do not appear to be at all concerned about the faith of people they challenge all over the world on a daily basis.

Starboy

miata

If people could debate and solve problems we would avoid a lot of wars. While serious debates are important; if you get too deep often the extremist on both sides of any issue will show up and the debate easily turns into a verbal bash and lines are drawn in the sand.

Most civil discussions end when the things people hold dear are attacked. If I was a Christian I am sure I would not want to insulted for my convictions. When I first asked the question why Christians are hostile to atheist I should have mentioned that atheist are often hostile to Christians. There is no answer to this question but I hope that I can be more tolerant of all people and respect their rights even when I don't understand. It is important for people to live together, and find reasons to work together. Alan Keyes wrote "a peaceful person lives in a peaceful world and a hostile person lives in a hostile world". I find this to have more truth when I watch the evening news. I do not want to convert anyone; I do want to live in peace with as many people as possible. I think most people worship as their parents did and that is not ever going to change.

I came to this site to learn about different views so I can understand things I fear and try to over come my own insecurities and find some peace of mind.

I appreciate all of you for being tolerant as we are alone in this world and even those of us who are godless are not heartless. I have learned something from all of you.

Faith

Mageth, I wouldn't have lurked in this forum (for several months now) or started posting here if I saw no opportunity to follow Jesus' words in The Great Commission. But I would be kidding myself if I believed many who post here want to be made disciples of God or desire to hear or obey what Jesus has commanded. In that case, Matthew 10:11-14 would apply.

The best I can hope for is open-minded discussion without being attacked for my beliefs. That is what I intended to convey when I said I wasn't interested in "selling" to someone disinterested in "buying". While I would love to share my faith with those who are open to listening, converting strong atheists is not on my To Do List.



Evidence to support my belief in God? If I had that, I would no longer have faith, I'd have certainty. My reason for believing as I do? I have seen and felt God working in my life and in the world around me. I did not grow up in a church-going household, so religious beliefs were never forced on me during childhood. Instead I made the decision to become a Christian as an adult after much soul-searching and consideration. I have never second-guessed my decision, and I am a much happier person for having faith in God.

I guess it's just the opposite path that you took from belief to non-belief.

Who is to judge that one of us is right and the other wrong if our choices work for us? Neither of us can know for certain that ours is the "right" choice, we can only believe.



Heaven would certainly be preferable if Hell is as described in the New Testament.


Not "bothered" so much as unable to reconcile condemnation to eternal suffering with the NT portrayal of an infinitely loving Father who would leave 99 sheep unattended to find the one who lost its way.

My avoidance of judgment is scriptural, as I indicated before.


I think adapting scripture to the modern world is one of the biggest challenges Christianity currently faces. But as I've written before, the Bible is simply a tool available to Christians. If we don't see scripture for what it is, an inspired guide and not a step-by-step manual, we are relegating it to the status of idol. God speaks to us beyond the written word. Jesus suggested we listen.