Steven Carr

I don't mind the lengthy reply, but I would have preferred if you had given examples of Jesus's wisdom.

Perhaps this thinking mental illness is caused by demon-possession is wisdom in your eyes, but in mine it is not.

Asha'man

Actually, to be more specific, books that were written about Jesus have been among the most influential in history. There is no evidence that the man existed, and if he did, no evidence that any of his words or thoughts ever managed to be reproduced within those books.

Those books claim that Jesus was wise, but do little to provide support for that claim. They books demonstrate a Jesus who refused to communicate in a clear and unambiguous manner, which has turned out to be a most unwise decision in the long run.

These books include examples of both wisdom and foolishness. There is no need to explain the foolishness, but the OP wants an explanation for the wisdom.

I say that the authors drew every single idea from the cultures around them. The mined the HB for anything that would support their position. They stole ideas from the Greek culture that surrounded them. The grabbed notions from other religions and clamed that Jesus was the originator.

If you see wisdom coming out of the mouth of Jesus, look to his speechwriters, not to the man.

Sven

Yeah, you could as well ask "How is George W. Bush so wise?"
(assuming that what he says is wise )

Not_Registered

The following inquiry is to make a point. Have you ever been in a group where the leader shot every idea you had down, so finally you got to a point where you weren't foolish enough to put an idea out there. Because you know the group leader would shoot it down regardless, so it would be in vain. This is the reason I am hesitant to give any specific instances showing Jesus' wisdom, in my eyes. I know that regardless of what instance I put out there 90% of the people reading this thread will say "that doesn't prove Jesus' wisdom" regardless. That's not to dismiss the chance that I would choose a scenario that doesn't display Jesus' wisdom. The point is that no matter what the given scenario is, it would not at all be viewed from an objective standpoint by 90% of the readers of this thread. If I were to reference a situation in the bible where Jesus' wisdom is clearly displayed and outside of this forum 90% of people agreed it is certain that 90% of the people inside this forum would say that the given situation proves none of what I say it proves. Or not even proove, that's too strong of a word for this situation. I wouldn't be trying to, because I can't, proove Jesus' wisdom, because, like I said before, it is somewhat of a subjective perception. But I wouldn't, no matter what, even be able to slightly convince anyone (or at least they wouldn't admit to it) that the given situation (and other situations, because wisdom isn't a one time deal) at least could be viewed as a display of wisdom.

Infidelettante

That would have been a good start. You must realize this is a discussion board devoted to atheism. You seem surprised that some express doubt as to your characterization of Jesus as wise. I think it is wise on your part to begin at the beginning and explain your reasons.

We would expect that you might enumerate those displays rather than leave us to scan for them on our own. It might interest you to know that there are many here who are knowledgeable regarding scripture. I have next to me now the King James 1611 Oxford University Press wide margin edition which has been with me for close to forty years. I have read it through several times.

Forgive me, but if this is true your effort is meaningless. Why undertake this discussion if you know it to be pointless? Why express your opinion that your savior is amazingly wise and then expect it to be left at that? This is the Internet Infidels discussion board, nothing is ever left at that.

Well no, it is exactly the topic you have raised. You are a Christian, your profile says so, I expect you believe Jesus was the Son of God. I expect you believe Jesus was God. If not I apologize but if so it must be your belief that Jesus possessed wisdom beyond what is naturally available. Otherwise, as I have said, this whole exercise is worthless.

So then what evidence leads you to believe Jesus is divine? I question you on this because you seem to want it both ways. Jesus possessed a natural, God given wisdom. If you can’t see the difficulty this raises then I can’t help you.

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Please explain why and how you thought to post at an atheist forum on the subject of the wisdom of Jesus and, having found all in agreement, leave it at that. Again, if you can’t recognize the difficulty you present we can’t help you. I thank you however for establishing that we may remain unbelievers even in the face of such overwhelming evidence as you present here.

I continue to hope that prior to the end of this discussion you might quote some scriptural basis for your view that Jesus had even an ordinary, natural, God given wisdom. Has Christianity so devolved that it is now acceptable to defend it with references to television shows?

Well there it is then, it is all pointless isn’t it? Ambiguity triumphs and no one is the wiser. If God is subjective and our perceptions are valid what is there to be shocked about?

Of course.

JT

seeker

Isn't it just possible that Jesus didn't really do anything particularly 'wise' to an objective viewer? Why are you so sure that no one here will lookat your contention objectively?

Infidelettante

Nothing ventured nothing gained for "my word shall not return unto me void." Scan for that one on your own.

JT

Gawen

Influential? Prelates are influential. Prefects are influential. Priests are influential. If Jesus ever existed (and I'm one of those that doesn't believe he did exist) and said all that's been written about him, his influence was small while he was alive. What influence is it to those that one man preaches an afterlife and give Caesar his due among an occupation army except to those that would listen have nothing to live for anyway?

The accounts of the short period in which he reportedly carried out his work in public include scanty information about his life. The historians, and his contemporaries act as if they have never heard of him, or if they did, they behave as if he was unworthy of mention. Jesus is the person who performed all those miracles in the Gospels and caused all the extraordinary events, and no one, beyond the writers of the Gospels and the stories in the New Testament, take notice of him. Is that influencial?

Matthew 11:3: “Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?� Is THAT influencial?

And where was his influence when the Romans tried and nailed him? At best, he was an average Joe that tried to make life easier for those under occupation in very turbulent times.

Tarot card readers, astrologers, quack doctors and suave charismatic cult leaders are influential...to some.

Cubeless Academian

I stand corrected. Some people do think Jesus was an average Joe.

But my main point was that "God," "wise man," and "average Joe" aren't the only three choices. Jesus could have been non-average without being wise or divine.

Not_Registered

I never said I know my effor to be pointless. I said I was trying to create a realization, which is that Jesus, even though He was just a carpenter, possessed great wisdom, and allow people to do with that what they please. Have you never said something to someone so they view it in a different light. They might just say "hmmmm...Wow, I never saw it like that. That is interesting" Does that make your point vain, or "meaningless". If so then a bunch of my teachers wasted my time, because that's when I learned the most. When I saw things in a different light, so to speak.

Yes, I have said that this is my belief, but I also said that I don't believe Jesus so be the Son of God merely because of His wisdom. That's foolish. Thus, there is no way I would be trying to prove that Jesus is divine by the statements I have made, saying that I believe Jesus to be wise. As I have said many time, I'm just trying to give people the opportunity to view things in a different light. That's all. Not trying to convert or even make any proof to Jesus being divine. Just trying to show a different side of the picture.

So you know what topic I raised better than me. Well forget Jesus' wisdom, I should be focused on yours.