Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 01-26-2009, 09:05 AM

Yeah, right, sixty years worth of exposure to Christian religious crap, starting with uncle's that thought it was "Jesus" will to indoctrinate a three year old with hell-fire and brimstone stories of a pitch-fork wilding Devil dragging us sinners down into the flames of hell.
As a pre-schooler in the 1950s my first books were sick-fuck Christian "comic" books, 'cause my mothers family was very religious, and after my mother passed away when I was two years old, they thought that it was their "sacred" Christian duty to see to it that I recieved a proper Christian "education", with the ultimate goal of making me into a preacher.
They were convinced that they were doing the "right" and "Christian" thing.
I can vividly recall my fathers arguments with my mothers family about them "trying to put an old man's head on a young mans shoulders",
except I wasn't even a young man yet, only an innocent little boy that they were doing their mind-fuck on, at four and five years old I suffered nightly from sweating, terrifying nightmares about the Devil dragging me out of my bed and down into the pit of burning Hell.
Dad finally had to take me away from all contact with my mothers side of the family, and I had no contact with them for the next forty years, and my father never spoke to them, or of them again.

In 1956 my father met, and eventually married a nice Adventist girl. Things went along fine at first, until under pressure from her, and her family, he began to refuse to work on Saturdays, and as a consequence lost the good paying steady factory job that he had held for around 17 years. (He never did find a steady good paying job after that, and as a result, the five additional children that he and my step mother had together were all taken away by the State)
But back to my "pretty" and inexperienced life story, we lived in a little tar-paper shack that belonged to my ultra-strict Adventist grandfather-by-marriage, and of course it being his property we lived under a set of draconian house rules that would have put a first-century Pharisee to shame; no meat, or meat products, and I think because someone had challenged him over it, no milk, or milk containing products, like cheese or ice cream. Strict Saturday Sabbath observance from sunset to sunset, no "entertainment" permitted other than mandatory church attendance (a hundred mile round trip every Saturday to "his" particular church) and bible readings and lessons. children were not to be permitted to "play" on The Lords Sabbath.
I ran away from home several times, even had the local and state police out searching for me at age seven, at age eight I ran away for the last time, seeking refuge at my fathers sisters house, my aunt Minnie, who although a poor widow with four children of her own she was struggling to support, took me in and raised me as her own son.

I am the oldest of my fathers seven children, all the others were taken away by the state. My youngest sister, born years after my departure, when she turned 18, had the social workers track me down, and we have managed to reunite three of us.
Now, tell me again where it is I've never been, and what I don't know.

Jane H · 01-26-2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Paul seemed to have real difficulty with reading or the repeating anything Jesus had allegedly said.
Strange, how time after time "Paul" will go on and on in presenting protracted theological arguments,
<snip>
Although the Catholic Church "doctored" his writings and invented new writings in his name to make it appear that he supported their new theological inventions.

Paul does refer to Jesus teaching, but mostly he is working in a different environment. Jesus was introducing changes to a reluctant pre-resurrection Israel, whereas Paul is reacting to issues that arise within churches in the gentile world after the resurrection. The two worlds meet in Acts, where we see both Jesus and Paul teaching. Paul’s “protracted arguments” make very good sense within the categories of first century Jewish thought within which he is operating.

The “hate your family” passage is paralleled in Matthew 10:27, where Matthew has gone with “love your family less”. The word “miseo” (hate) is found in Romans 9:13 and the relevant OT idiomatic approach in Genesis 29:30,31where in each case it is “love less” rather than “hate” that is meant. The context in Luke 14- what you might have to give up for Christ- strongly supports this reading.

In other words, it’s not, “Hate your wife”, but “Your wife may disown you. Still want to follow me?”.

Ipetrich- an impressive list, in all senses of “impressive”.

show_no_mercy · 01-26-2009, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

Agreed!

It is far more important to love your wife than to love God, and I will tell you why. You cannot help him, but you can help her. You can fill her life with the perfume of perpetual joy. It is far more important that you love your children than that you love Jesus Christ. And why? If he is God you cannot help him, but you can plant a little flower of happiness in every footstep of the child, from the cradle until you die in that child's arms. Let me tell you to-day it is far more important to build a home than to erect a church. The holiest temple beneath the stars is a home that love has built. And the holiest altar in all the wide world is the fireside around which gather father and mother and the sweet babes. -Robert G. Ingersoll

Or we might read Paul:

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;...So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it,... (Ephesians 5:25-29)

And we can still put the love of a husband for his wife in proper perspective to his love for Christ.

What does a never married homophobe who endorses slavery know about "love"?

Sheshbazzar · 01-26-2009, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jane H

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Paul seemed to have real difficulty with reading or the repeating anything Jesus had allegedly said.
Strange, how time after time "Paul" will go on and on in presenting protracted theological arguments,
<snip>
Although the Catholic Church "doctored" his writings and invented new writings in his name to make it appear that he supported their new theological inventions.

Paul does refer to Jesus teaching, but mostly he is working in a different environment. Jesus was introducing changes to a reluctant pre-resurrection Israel, whereas Paul is reacting to issues that arise within churches in the gentile world after the resurrection. The two worlds meet in Acts, where we see both Jesus and Paul teaching. Paul’s “protracted arguments” make very good sense within the categories of first century Jewish thought within which he is operating.

While his "protracted arguments" and explanations for his particular views and interpretations of The Hebrew Scriptures, and how christ's works are related to them might make good sense, that does not at all begin to explain why he almost never uses any direct quote from christ, or any references to those things that supposedly christ taught or did while he was on earth, to either introduce, explain, illustrate, or support those claims that he alone makes.

If he did actually spend any time at all with those Apostles who supposedly walked and talked with "Jesus" all during his public ministry, and onto whom "Jesus" revealed the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, and taught them ALL things concerning Him, and whom were filled with the Holy Spirit on The Day of Pentecost, It seems that "Paul" did not believe whatever it was that they told him, because he does not cite nor conform to their teachings, but invents his own ideas saying that they were revealed to him by christ in a "vision".
So we get Paul, "withstanding" and resisting the evident beliefs and teachings of Peter, James (the head of the Church of Jerusalem) and the other Apostles, all of whom were hand picked and personally taught by "Jesus".
Something is bad wrong with Paul's over-riding and attempted discrediting of the teachings of the original Apostles.

The reason is, that the real "Paul" did not actually write most of what you read in "Paul's" writings, and the "gospel" stories and the sayings found in "The Gospels" were unknown to the original Paul the Philosopher whose writings the Church plagiarised to construct that religious abomination called "The New Testement".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jane H

The “hate your family” passage is paralleled in Matthew 10:27, where Matthew has gone with “love your family less”.

Jane you need to check your homework. What verse did you actually have in mind?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jane H

The word “miseo” (hate) is found in Romans 9:13 and..

.....37 other passages in the NT where it unmistakably means to "hate" just as we commonly understand the word to mean hate.
Here are a few verses for reference;

Quote:

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Quote:

Mat 5:44 do good to them that hate you

Quote:

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake:

Quote:

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Quote:

Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Quote:

Luk 1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

Quote:

Luk 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you [from their company], and shall reproach [you], and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

Quote:

Jhn 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.

Quote:

Jhn 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also

Quote:

Jhn 15:25 But [this cometh to pass], that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Quote:

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity;

Quote:

1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

also

Quote:

1Jo 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness,

Quote:

1Jo 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

Quote:

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer:

Quote:

1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar:

Quote:

Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans

And there are more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jane H

the relevant OT idiomatic approach in Genesis 29:30,31where in each case it is “love less” rather than “hate” that is meant. The context in Luke 14- what you might have to give up for Christ- strongly supports this reading.

Does your idiomatic reading also turn

Quote:

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

into

Quote:

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be loved less of all nations for my name's sake.

?
or,

Quote:

Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

into

Quote:

Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall love less one another.

?
or,

Quote:

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity;

into

Quote:

Thou hast loved righteousness, and loved less iniquity;

?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jane H

In other words, it’s not, “Hate your wife”, but “Your wife may disown you. Still want to follow me?”.

How many of the above verses containing “miseo” can you swap in "love less" for the word "hate"?

Were they altogether so ignorant that they could not write a better word?
They damn well COULD have written "love(d) less",
IF that had been their actual intent, or are you going to claim that they deliberately chose a more obscure, and easily misunderstood term, with a devious intent to intentionally deceive men as to the true and correct meaning of their words?
Some display of God's love is if that is how he uses it.

rhutchin · 01-27-2009, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Yeah, right, sixty years worth of exposure to Christian religious crap, starting with uncle's that thought it was "Jesus" will to indoctrinate a three year old with hell-fire and brimstone stories of a pitch-fork wilding Devil dragging us sinners down into the flames of hell.
...
Now, tell me again where it is I've never been, and what I don't know.

Looks like sixty years of never really being exposed to the bible and what it says.

rhutchin · 01-27-2009, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Or we might read Paul:

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;...So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it,... (Ephesians 5:25-29)

And we can still put the love of a husband for his wife in proper perspective to his love for Christ.

What does a never married homophobe who endorses slavery know about "love"?

More than you.

Deus Ex · 01-27-2009, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Yeah, right, sixty years worth of exposure to Christian religious crap, starting with uncle's that thought it was "Jesus" will to indoctrinate a three year old with hell-fire and brimstone stories of a pitch-fork wilding Devil dragging us sinners down into the flames of hell.
...
Now, tell me again where it is I've never been, and what I don't know.

Looks like sixty years of never really being exposed to the bible and what it says.

Luckily, we have you to teach us what the bible really says.

show_no_mercy · 01-27-2009, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

What does a never married homophobe who endorses slavery know about "love"?

More than you.

So someone who thinks marriage is pointless, who endorses slavery, and hates homosexuals knows more about "love" than someone who decries all of those things? Someone who thinks that women are the entire reason that the world is fucked up, but the only way they can redeem themselves is by having lots of babies knows about "love"?

No wonder "Christian love" is so warped.

grip_daddy · 01-27-2009, 08:53 AM

Wow it's my first day and I can't resist getting amused.

Considering that where I come from many minors are forced to get married after facing the FGM, I think I can understand what Jesus meant when he asked for family detachment. If these young girls are not detached from their families (and the entire culture), they cannot get a better life for themselves. They will only act as wives of some old men who betrothed them when they were but toddlers.

If our families will be hindrance to following Jesus (we believe in the fairer life hereafter), we will miss out on the benefits of following him.

Sheshbazzar · 01-27-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Yeah, right, sixty years worth of exposure to Christian religious crap, starting with uncle's that thought it was "Jesus" will to indoctrinate a three year old with hell-fire and brimstone stories of a pitch-fork wilding Devil dragging us sinners down into the flames of hell.

"As a pre-schooler in the 1950s my first books were sick-fuck Christian "comic" books, 'cause my mothers family was very religious, and after my mother passed away when I was two years old, they thought that it was their "sacred" Christian duty to see to it that I recieved a proper Christian "education", with the ultimate goal of making me into a preacher.
They were convinced that they were doing the "right" and "Christian" thing.
I can vividly recall my fathers arguments with my mothers family about them "trying to put an old man's head on a young mans shoulders",
except I wasn't even a young man yet, only an innocent little boy that they were doing their mind-fuck on, at four and five years old I suffered nightly from sweating, terrifying nightmares about the Devil dragging me out of my bed and down into the pit of burning Hell.
Dad finally had to take me away from all contact with my mothers side of the family, and I had no contact with them for the next forty years, and my father never spoke to them, or of them again.

In 1956 my father met, and eventually married a nice Adventist girl. Things went along fine at first, until under pressure from her, and her family, he began to refuse to work on Saturdays, and as a consequence lost the good paying steady factory job that he had held for around 17 years. (He never did find a steady good paying job after that, and as a result, the five additional children that he and my step mother had together were all taken away by the State)
But back to my "pretty" and inexperienced life story, we lived in a little tar-paper shack that belonged to my ultra-strict Adventist grandfather-by-marriage, and of course it being his property we lived under a set of draconian house rules that would have put a first-century Pharisee to shame; no meat, or meat products, and I think because someone had challenged him over it, no milk, or milk containing products, like cheese or ice cream. Strict Saturday Sabbath observance from sunset to sunset, no "entertainment" permitted other than mandatory church attendance (a hundred mile round trip every Saturday to "his" particular church) and bible readings and lessons. children were not to be permitted to "play" on The Lords Sabbath.
I ran away from home several times, even had the local and state police out searching for me at age seven, at age eight I ran away for the last time, seeking refuge at my fathers sisters house, my aunt Minnie, who although a poor widow with four children of her own she was struggling to support, took me in and raised me as her own son.

I am the oldest of my fathers seven children, all the others were taken away by the state. My youngest sister, born years after my departure, when she turned 18, had the social workers track me down, and we have managed to reunite three of us.
Now, tell me again where it is I've never been, and what I don't know."
... end quote

Now, tell me again where it is I've never been, and what I don't know.

Looks like sixty years of never really being exposed to the bible and what it says.

Looks like you don't know what you are talking about, I have been exposed to the bible and what it says all of my life.

After I escaped those religious lunatics, I went on to a more normal life and Christian experience.
And I became a devout believer, searching the Bible day and night for years- to deal with what these well meaning Christians had inflicted upon me.
I literally wore out the Bibles, that I carried into the factory where I worked, (I still have my favorite ones that are so worn that they are now held together with tape inside and out, having undergone over 30 years of use at Lunch-hour and rest-break Bible study and witnessing.)
Back in my twenties it was my practice, that each new version of the Bible that came into my possession, I would read it from beginning to end, and it was not unusual that I would have three, four or even as many as six Bibles laid out at once, so that I could carefully compare their readings, along with various reference books to make sure that I was understanding correctly what I was reading.
There were entire nights that I spent in the sanctuary, engaged in sincere and earnest prayer, and in solitary Bible study. And out of that I learned things about the Bible that no man can ever know, except by in the doing.
Latter, being a devout Bible believer, I moved on into the study of the Hebrew, and have read the entire Torah in the Hebrew language, committing many verses to memory, down to the last yod and tittle.
Then there also is my collection of Hebrew language New Testaments, which I have found to be most interesting and enlightening.
I have no doubt at all that when it comes to the Bible, I am much better read, and have had much more "exposure" to it than most Christians.

I do not even know how many Bibles I have stashed here around my little farm house, a lot, but I do think some here might find it of interest that I am typing this with a Bible in my lap, one that is inscribed as PRESENTED TO; Jessie.....1960 (that's me at age 11) with notes in my then crude and childish hand.

To deal with what had been done to me, I have always needed to personally know and to understand it for myself, no readings, assurances, or platitudes from preachers or from any "authority figures" could ever give me any peace of mind.

As this is the only Forum that I regularly post in, my progress from being a staunch Bible believer and defender for years here, to my present views are well documented.

No insult, but you simply do not know, and are spiritually incapable of knowing or even beginning to comprehend what it is that I know about the Bible.
If that knowledge were to enter you, you would certainly drop dead on the spot, because your mind is not prepared to receive it.
No danger at all to you though, because you cannot. What thou lackest, thou knowest not.

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01-26-2009, 09:05 AM	#41
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Yeah, right, sixty years worth of exposure to Christian religious crap, starting with uncle's that thought it was "Jesus" will to indoctrinate a three year old with hell-fire and brimstone stories of a pitch-fork wilding Devil dragging us sinners down into the flames of hell. As a pre-schooler in the 1950s my first books were sick-fuck Christian "comic" books, 'cause my mothers family was very religious, and after my mother passed away when I was two years old, they thought that it was their "sacred" Christian duty to see to it that I recieved a proper Christian "education", with the ultimate goal of making me into a preacher. They were convinced that they were doing the "right" and "Christian" thing. I can vividly recall my fathers arguments with my mothers family about them "trying to put an old man's head on a young mans shoulders", except I wasn't even a young man yet, only an innocent little boy that they were doing their mind-fuck on, at four and five years old I suffered nightly from sweating, terrifying nightmares about the Devil dragging me out of my bed and down into the pit of burning Hell. Dad finally had to take me away from all contact with my mothers side of the family, and I had no contact with them for the next forty years, and my father never spoke to them, or of them again. In 1956 my father met, and eventually married a nice Adventist girl. Things went along fine at first, until under pressure from her, and her family, he began to refuse to work on Saturdays, and as a consequence lost the good paying steady factory job that he had held for around 17 years. (He never did find a steady good paying job after that, and as a result, the five additional children that he and my step mother had together were all taken away by the State) But back to my "pretty" and inexperienced life story, we lived in a little tar-paper shack that belonged to my ultra-strict Adventist grandfather-by-marriage, and of course it being his property we lived under a set of draconian house rules that would have put a first-century Pharisee to shame; no meat, or meat products, and I think because someone had challenged him over it, no milk, or milk containing products, like cheese or ice cream. Strict Saturday Sabbath observance from sunset to sunset, no "entertainment" permitted other than mandatory church attendance (a hundred mile round trip every Saturday to "his" particular church) and bible readings and lessons. children were not to be permitted to "play" on The Lords Sabbath. I ran away from home several times, even had the local and state police out searching for me at age seven, at age eight I ran away for the last time, seeking refuge at my fathers sisters house, my aunt Minnie, who although a poor widow with four children of her own she was struggling to support, took me in and raised me as her own son. I am the oldest of my fathers seven children, all the others were taken away by the state. My youngest sister, born years after my departure, when she turned 18, had the social workers track me down, and we have managed to reunite three of us. Now, tell me again where it is I've never been, and what I don't know.

01-27-2009, 08:53 AM	#49
grip_daddy Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Nakuru, Kenya Posts: 144	Wow it's my first day and I can't resist getting amused. Considering that where I come from many minors are forced to get married after facing the FGM, I think I can understand what Jesus meant when he asked for family detachment. If these young girls are not detached from their families (and the entire culture), they cannot get a better life for themselves. They will only act as wives of some old men who betrothed them when they were but toddlers. If our families will be hindrance to following Jesus (we believe in the fairer life hereafter), we will miss out on the benefits of following him.

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