Tachakuma

Hey People,
I am having a slight crisis in faith. Up until a few days ago I was a happy go lucky Christian believer! However, now I am not so sure as to what I am. Why, well I have heard some pretty convincing arguments on the concept of “no God!�? I have heard some pretty convincing concepts on morality without religion.

Now, I am not stating that I no longer believe in God. However, I have decided that based on what I currently believe I cannot consider myself a Christian. This obviously has very deep ramifications for me. Mostly, everyone that I know is a Christian or has some type of faith in a God. There are only a few people that I could honestly call an agnostic. I know no atheists besides the good friends that I am making here!

Now one of those friends, Mirage, posted something that caught my attention. Mirage seemed to think (I am taking liberties here) that there is a process from Christianity to Atheism. That process is as follows: Christianity, Deism, Agnosticism, and then Atheism. Obviously I don’t know how true this process is yet it does seem to make sense!
Now Classical posted that his process was slightly different. His process is as follows!

However, the same pattern that Mirage stated holds true.

Also, there are issues of morality! My morality was based on a religion thread line, “Thou shall not�? do such a thing. However, another good friend, Asha’man pointed out,

Also,
This has reduced my concept of morality from ‘thou shall not kill�? to “thou shall obey the posted speed limit!�? Of course I am not going to go out and start murdering people all of a sudden. Yet, the issue of a moral standard above woman’s standard has been demolished without the idea of a God. In other words what or whom now sets the standard?

Now two of my other good friends BadBadBad and Baldbantam has went through a conversion so to speak. From what I can tell their entire lives have changed based on that conversion, including changes in their worldviews! This doesn't include what their friends and families now thought as they sat down to say grace over the evening meal!

There have been other ideas brought to mind by some of my other friends such as Stephen TB, Knurd, Boomeister, Innerpeace, Phishfood, Dark Knight Bob, Johntheapostate, Tangiellis, TomboyMom, post tenebras lux, Show no mercy, Biff the unclean, Diogenes the Cynic, Infinite Rules, Plognark, Sven, Julian, Capn Danger, Run2white and LP675.
I hope I haven’t forgotten anyone! If I did then I apologize. However these are the people that most comes to mind. These have been the ones that in one breath I thank greatly. Yet, in another breath I wish that I never met any of them!

Now, I know that various people have covered these issues in other threads. Nevertheless, those people that once posted please post again and let us know how your journey is continuing. We want to deal with:
1. Why you converted?
2. How you converted?
3. How did you feel about converting?
4. Did you follow the pattern that Mirage outlined?
5. How do you feel now about your conversion?
6. How has your life changed personally
7. What did your friends and family think in the beginning?
8. What do your friends and family think now!
9. What is your friends and family worldview?
10. Have you changed any of their opinions on issues?
11. What was your worldview, or belief system?
12. What is your world view or belief system now?
13. Is your life better after your conversion? If so how and why?
14. What do you now think of people that hold a religious worldview?
15. How do you feel about religion in general?
16. EDIT How old were you when you converted? And do you think it made a difference?
17. EDIT How long have you held your current belief?
Now, this list is not meant to be all-inclusive! I also know that some of the questions are vague. But, I don’t want to define the questions, we will do that together. Now, I know that threads have a life of their own! But please don’t answer all the questions and leave the thread. Please don’t post your life story and walk away! Hang around for a while and see what happens.

BadBadBad

I already went through my story with you Tach, but you've asked some interesting questions. My story may really only be too much different because I converted as a child, which was more a growing up process than deconversion from Christianity. My story is one not as a rejection of religion and god, but as a revolt from being trod on by the religious.

1. Why you converted?

Because I came to realize concepts like a personal god, prayer, and hell just didn't make any sense. Basically, I grew up, and at 12-13 stopped believing my last fairytale.

2. How you converted?

People told me more of the whole story about Christianity. The more they told me the less I believed it. Many people say here that Christians can be their worst enemies with respect to converting people they spread the news to. They seem to go out of their way to convert/deconvert the wrong people in the wrong direction.

3. How did you feel about converting?

I had childish fears of hell. If I don't believe with my whole heart will I go to hell? How do you make yourself believe something you don't? In the end, I decided you can't. You can't lie to yourself and convince yourself to believe something you don't. I wondered if thats what all other Christians were doing. Once I recognized self-honesty had to prevail, the only thing to worry about was other people, and for me an you, that is by far the biggest issue.

4. Did you follow the pattern that Mirage outlined?

I admitted atheism. I lived apathy towards religion. I lived my twenties virtually never thinking of religion or God. Then only as an adult faced with girlfriends, co-workers, a wife, and children did I really get it as far as what religion meant to my life. I am strongly anti-religion and anti-christian as a result.

5. How do you feel now about your conversion?

I feel educated, and many times as I post here, I feel vindicated. I also feel free of much of the fear of rejection being looked down upon that I know you fear. I feared anyone finding out I'm atheist until I found atheism on the Internet and learned what religion is really all about.

6. How has your life changed personally

I still live with conflict, underlying resentment, and an underlying label of BadBadBad or heathen within my family. I resent my wife for forcing religion on my children. I resent my wife for indoctrinating my child to the "realization" that I am BadBadBad. This isn't a result of a conversion process, it is the cause of how I have come to feel about religion and Christians.

7. What did your friends and family think in the beginning?

My family is mostly atheist except for my Mom, and as far as I can see, she looks at it just like anything else I've done that she doesn't approve of. My wife labels me subtly as a godless heathen. Moreso earlier on, but it's still there. For the kids, I feel sorry for them. If they continue with their religion, they'll carry their attitudes with them until I die. Then rather than looking forward to re-uniting with me in afterlife like my wife awaits her own mother, they'll dread the day I go to hell and mourn for my soul the rest of their life. Perhaps the same awaits my future grandchildren. You talked about morality. Let me ask you all. Is that a moral thing to teach your child about their father?

8. What do your friends and family think now!
9. What is your friends and family worldview?

Fundy wife. One fundy friend, an occasional fundy freak every now and again, and basically a whole life of people that you could never tell.

10. Have you changed any of their opinions on issues?

I slowly work to influence my children. I don't know if it is effective.

11. What was your worldview, or belief system?

I don't really count myself as ever being Christian. I was naive and a child then I grew up. As an adult, I was an apathetic atheism hiding behind agnosticism when pressed. .

12. What is your world view or belief system now?

Now, I'm anti-christian and strong atheist

13. Is your life better after your conversion? If so how and why?

No it's not. I would much prefer to be left alone to my own lack of beliefs and lack of thought on religion whatsoever. That's where I don't see religion as a harmless pill for you to take in the privacy of your own home.

14. What do you now think of people that hold a religious worldview?

I see them as willing victims to arbitrary conformity, naivete, and fraud.

15. How do you feel about religion in general?

It's the plague of the Earth.

I hope that's not too bitter for everyone, but religion has become a very bitter bitter pill for me. Hopefully one day I can return to not caring less.

Diogenes the Cynic

I was raised in a dual Catholic-Southern Baptist home and went to Catholic schools. I realized at an early age (before I was 10 years old) that i didn;t believe in God. It wasn't so much a process as just a realization as I was sitting in church that I didn't believe it.
I felt a little disappointed, like when you figure out there isn't a Santa Claus, but it didn't really bother me that much. I just decided to play along and not tell anybody. I also remember that I was still fascinated by Bible stories even though I didn't believe they were true. I just liked them as stories.
Mine was pretty immediate and I'm not sure I ever had a strong belief to begin with. I've always had an inveterately skeptical and empirical mind. I was never given "the gift of faith," I don't think. I always need proof for things and I've been that way since I was a child.
Free. I'm grateful that I have the emotional freedom to think and explore whatever I want.
It really hasn't changed since my deconversion happened so young.
My parents were surprisingly supportive and never tried to talk me back into a faith. As I was growing up, they still sent me to Catholic schools for the education and occasionally requested that I go to Mass but only at Christmas or Easter or for the odd wedding or funeral.
My father has become lapsed to the point of agnosticism himself. My mother could be described as a liberal Christian but she has no problems with my non-theism.

My wife is a liberal Catholic. We sparred a bit about the God question when we were first dating and eventually just agreed not to interfere with each other's beliefs. She doesn't try to make me go to church and I don't try to deconvert her. She is becoming more and more casual in her practice and I think her belief is probably more deistic now than strictly Christian,
I think that I have gotten through to my parnts as well as my wife on issues of Biblical criticism. I don't try to tell them there is no God but I can tell them about the flaws in the Bible. It seems to me that the single point that has impressed the most on thm is finding out that none of the gospels are eyewitness accounts.
Nominal Catholic to agnostic/atheist.
I believe that my life is infinitely better for not being bound by religious fear or dogma. I can be as curious as I want to be, investigate anything I want and never be afraid of the answer.
I hate to be trite but it depends on the person. An individual's religious beliefs tend not to be one of the characteristics that matter to my opinion of them unless they are abusive or intrusive about it.
To be honest, I think it's an archaic human institution that does a lot of harm, but I also think that a lot of good people are religious. I don't think most of the PEOPLE are bad (though some are).

Tachakuma

Posted twiice

Tachakuma

You know I really don't believe in Hell. Even as a Christian I could not get behind the idea of a Hell. But, to be honest with you as I was writing this post the only thing that was on my mind was going to Hell. I don't understand it. It is kind of freaking me out. But oh well life goes on for a little while longer!

Nice place to be?

Why is that? I can understand the conflict. Personally speaking I might be just a few days away from it myself. Yet, you don't seem like the type to resent anything?
Is any of that resentment saved for yourself. Do you resent being an Atheist?

Well if Atheists are godless heathens you should be happy to know that George Bush has been added to your ranks. Do you and your wife still talk about you being an Atheist? How do your kids view you? It's funny that you mentioned an afterlife!

Yeah, that fundie wife thing is going to be a problem! My wife has ideas of being married to a minister! My mom a different story tell you later!

I really want to comment on this but I won't! Maybe, I'll PM you later!

Damn I have got to PM you Tomorrow for sure!

You are all right in my book. You generally come on strong anyway. You and a few others I was expecting to actually nuke these questions.
Anyway, I'll PM you later! I have an idea that I want to pass by you before I post it, just to see what you think!

Peace!

PoodleLovinPessimist

The Atheists' Testimony Thread has a lot of these.

I can't help you much myself; I'm a lifelong atheist.

Tachakuma

Hey haven't heard from you in a while, how have you been? Nice link, if I would have seen it earlier I wouldn't have posted this thread!

Hell, post a view.
1. How do you feel about religion in general?
2. What do people think when they find out that you are an Atheist?
3. What belief do the people in your life hold?
4. Why are you an Atheist?
5. Have you ever thought about embracing a religion? If so, which one and why?
6. If you had to pick a belief system other than Atheism what would it be?
7. What do you think about mixed belief system relationships?
8.
9.
10.

The list goes on and on and on! Hey have fun with it!

mirage

Hi Tach,

I feel a little embarrassed at the "mirage 4 step", as it is only a comment on what I have heard people say, like Classical as you mention. I think this process, if it does apply, is more to do with getting comfortable with the label you give yourself rather than a true change in beliefs. It's a bit like letting go of the side of the swimming pool.

I'm also a little embarrassed that I can't give you a bit more help with the whole personal side of deconversion as I have never really considered myself anything but an atheist in my adult life, and had no traumatic deconversion to worry about.

Having said that, I have absolutely no choice in the matter, and couldn't live any other way. The things you have to gain is intellectual integrity. This may not always sound much, but it is basically not lying to yourself, being honest and having the world make sense to you.

You also don't need to worry about doubts all the time, because we can be fairly confident you would have plenty of those given your willingness to think critically about what you are being told.

There is no chance whatever of you or anyone you know going to Hell.

OK, so there is no chance of going to Heaven either, but heaven sucks. People say that an afterlife provides some sort of meaning, but it can't possibly do that. The meaning of life is to get to heaven? Then what? There actually can't be any meaning to god's existence if you think about it. It's the usual religious ploy of answering a "mystery of life" by just booting the question elsewhere. Heaven in this case. God in the case of the "where did everything come from?" question.

This is it. Don't worry about it. You didn't worry about all the billions of years you weren't around before you were born. Just relax and enjoy, and wonder at it all. Once you get used to this you may actually find that you worry less about death than a lot of religious types. Maybe this is just me but in my opinion, lots of them are shit scared about hell and don't admit it, or....they know in their heart of hearts that heaven is just a fairy tale, can't bring themselves to admit it and haven't got comfortable with the idea.

It's almost tempting perhaps to think you are "giving up" heaven. This is ridiculous of course, you were never going there in the first place, and neither is anyone else.

Basically, you are growing up. That can be scary at first, but after a while you could never go back to childish securities. Breathe the fresh air of rational thought!

Now, I wish I could give you some advice about family, but I have no personal experience on this, and don't know your situation. I can only say that if your family love you, they will continue to love you whatever tensions and anxiety this sort of thing might cause.

Morality wise, you are worrying about nothing. Simple as that. Really.

You, I trust like the majority of the human race, essentially want to do the right thing. You know what feels right and what feels wrong. Now you have the added gift of actually being able to apply some rational thought to your values so you can try to be consistent. You no longer have to worry if what feels right to you really is right in some mouldy old myth book.

Are you really any more capable of murder than you were as a fully fledged Christian? Of course not! Do you still get a kick out of making people happy, feeling good about yourself? Of course! Do you still want a world where everybody can get along and respect one another? Do you still feel the warmth of human connection and empathy?

Now it's up to you to decide what meaning you want to give your life. You are the boss. Do you want to be a good person or a shit bag? Which do you think you might feel better about? It really isn't rocket science.

Given that life here on earth is the life that counts, do you want to leave the world a better place or not?

Etc. etc. etc.

Morality is the least of your problems. Now you are free to actually follow your conscience! Contrary to popular religious propaganda, you are not actually depraved or inherently evil. What a turn up for the books!

Actually, you've got me all fired up now! Atheism kicks ass! If you don't like it, you're a pussy! How's that for helpful?

Now, regarding religions and religious people. Lots of people here are proper ex Christians and they will no doubt be able to give much better advice. But this usually correlates with a distinct pissed offness about religion in general and Christianity in particular. Which I could understand if I felt conned like that.

Whilst I admire their militancy against a force that has a huge effect on their life and environment, it would be a shame to fume and rage about it too much. It is a fact of life that the majority of people on the planet have some sort of magic sky religion. Then again, the majority of people on the planet are undereducated dimwits who have been told this stuff since birth. It is a rare thing to escape your upbringing.

I'm not one of those atheists who see religion purely as a deliberate conspiracy to control the masses. Most people genuinely believe and religion is there to serve that need/belief. They also mostly believe with the best intentions, just as the clergy usually serve with the finest intentions. Just like everything else, an amicable accommodation has to be worked out. It is as well to acknowledge that religion can have many positive aspects (for those skilled in doublethink or without enough critical thinking skills that they can wholeheartedly believe it.) It's just not for you. I don't see the point of preaching against religion, just arguing rationally whenever specific points come up, particularly the political defence of a secular society, or you are asked to justify disbelief. I would say a key point of honour for the critical thinker should be an almost exaggerated willingness to admit error and be open to persuasion, with cavalier disregard for your own pet beliefs. You can then focus on the specific arguments, in practice safe in the knowledge that religious arguments don't have a rational leg to stand on.

Anyway, just some random bollocks that came out in no particular order. Feel free to take or reject what you please. Good luck with everything.

mirage

Also, if you fancy a marathon hardcore testimony, check this out if you haven't already. (it's the salvation story sticky at the top of this forum).

fastek24

hi mirage,i have seen your posts before.this is my first.my first question is do you think that it is easier for a jew to be "accepted by believers then a christian? any comments