Amos

Yes but Hitler was a heretic and would have been dealt with by the Catholic church long before his rise to power. The point here is that the Catholic church has always tried to prevent religious fanatics to become powerful leaders because the Church knows and understands that they are motivated by the fires of hell. In this case on simple "confession" would have saved 6 million Jews.

Amos

The real Christians are never those who claim to be Christians because they must be crucified by those who claim to be Christians. This is the same as it was for Jesus, who was a Jew and had to be crucified by the Jews . . . wherefore he ordered his disciples to tell noone that he was the "Christ-in-becoming" and after he became Christ he left the scene never to be seen again.

Occams_Razor

You know sometimes after reading certain posts I just stare off into the distance muttering, absolutely dumbfounded.

Amos

Well anybody who doesn't understand religion should never use Occams Razor because you'll be cutting just the wrong parts away. Catholicism is a mystery religion and is far beyond the crititique of believers and unbelievers alike.

Occams_Razor

Non compos mentis.

Biggus

No, quite right. I interpreted what you stated as lumping Hitler and Stalin together in terms of religious belief. If that is incorrect, then a large part of my previous post was flawed.

However, having said that, you're going to have to accept that Hitler did in fact define himself as xtian.

"Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise." A. Hitler in Mein Kampf, Volume 1 Chapter 12, I believe.

Quite often, Hitler is portrayed as not being xtian. From my rather cursory research on the matter, his secretary Martin Bormann was an atheist, and it is from him that the myth of Hitler the Atheist is directly attributable. The plaques of which you speak are simply words placed in Hitler's mouth by Bormann.

How about: "For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: 'Lord, make us free!' is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!'" Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Ch 13.

Sounds pretty damn xtian to me.


Oh, I hold the Germans (well, those who were adults during the '30s and '40s anyway) responsible for the persecution of the Jews, certainly. I don't however hold them responsible for the mass extermination of said Jews. I don't believe that it would be reasonable for people to know that such horrors were being visited upon the Jews. After all, the Jews were a major part of German industrial might, killing them didn't make much sense.

I do blame those who knew and did nothing to stop it. Absolutely.

Of course, I still believe that this is not an apropriate analogy for the discussion taking place. See, I don't hold xtians responsible today for the horrors of the crusades. I hold xtian organisations responsible for it, even those that did not exist at the time. Seems unreasonable, doesn't it? Well tough. Those organisations sprang from the Roman Catholic Church, and their history ultimately goes back to the same place.

And I hold xtianity responsible for ongoing genocide today too. Whether it is any of the various xtian movements going into Africa or South America in search of new tribes to convert (and expose to new diseases), or whether it is religious organisations in Africa spreading lies about condoms causing AIDS and causing a massive loss of life through said disease. If you're funding such organisations, or you call yourself a member of said organisations, well you're responsible.

Maybe my brush is somewhat broad, but to hell with it. Xtianity causes far more harm than good.

Jack the Bodiless

It should be noted that being "German" has no moral or ethical connotations. A person's "Germanity" is not a relevant factor in his moral decisions.

However, Christianity purports to include a code of ethics and morality. When devout Christians perpetrate genocide (the Nazis were 50% Lutheran and 35% Catholic, according to their own party membership statistics), we are entitled to ask why.

And, in this case, the answer is pretty clear: there was a long history of Christian religious anti-Jewish propaganda in Germany.

Magus55

No one said no Catholics were Christian. I doubt every Catholic on the planet supported the Crusades. And why should God have stopped the attrocities? Humans went against Him to do it. Why shouldn't He let humans suffer the consequence of their stupid actions? Should He stop every stupid mistake or attrocity any human ever makes?

Magus55

No, a Christian is one who has faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and devotes their life to Him. These days, Christianity has become more of a political or social title. You can claim to be a Christian, and still not follow Christ, which by all Biblical and doctrinal standards, makes you a non-christian, despite claiming to be one.

I don't really care whether you want to claim its a fallacy or not. Saying "I'm Christian" does not automatically make you one.

Magus55

So if I think I'm the president of the United States, then I am?