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01-11-2009, 05:24 PM | #11 | ||
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Eusebius is compelled to write a large number of books in refutation of "The History of Philostratus" in which he mentions Damis but provides no indication that Damis (also Apollonius) was anything other than an historical figure. Eusebius (Against Hierocles) also confirms some of the points listed in the OP -- independently -- 1) Cities the subject visited, 2) Temples the subject visited, 3) Accounts written of him, 4) Letters by the subject. Eusebius composed his text c.324 CE, therefore perhaps a century after Philostratus wrote "The Life of Apollonius of Tyana". Quote:
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01-13-2009, 07:10 AM | #12 | |||
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Book Him Damno
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Hmmm. This is indirectly related to the OP and a potential distraction. Should I react belligerently (like I normally do) or for once, flip it and stop kicking against the Gibsoads. Maybe I should see Gibson as a valuable asset, a Skeptical Greek professor. I could respond in an intellectual and scholarly way. Help create a rational discussion based on mutual understanding respect and quality. Accept constructive criticism in the spirit of learning and avoid these incessant ego battles based on lesser issues....... Naaaaah! Toto, I'm curious, Gibson wrote 7 posts here (two were deleted) after I had only written the OP, none of which directly relate to the OP. Is that some type of record? MM, with his obsession of Constantine and JG with his obsession of MM's obsession of Constantine, always remind me of Lokai and Bele crashing into my Thread from their Constantine Galaxy. For the time being I'll continue with lecture unless someone has a comment directly related to the OP. Continuing with identified sources in The Life of Apollonius http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/apollon...1_01.html#%A71 Quote:
Here the author provides specific sources: 1) Damis - wrote an account of Appollonius. 2) Maximus of Aegae - wrote a book about Appollonius. 3) Appollonius - wrote a will. 4) Moeragenes - wrote four books about Appollonius (the author is critical of this source). Joseph http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page |
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01-16-2009, 08:06 AM | #13 | |
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Continuing with identified sources in The Life of Apollonius http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/apollon...1_01.html#%A71 Quote:
Here we have provenance for the author: 1) Who - "the circle of the empress". Autographs are always arguable but it is unanimous as far as I know that the author is Flavius Philostratus. 2) What - "recast and edit these essays". 3) Where - "empress Julia" 4) When - "empress Julia" 5) Why - "she commanded me" 6) How - "I combined these scattered sources together" Joseph http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page |
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01-16-2009, 08:09 AM | #14 |
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ooh, ooh.....do it for Mark...
oh, wait...... the forum doesn't allow blank posts... |
01-18-2009, 07:03 AM | #15 | |||
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01-18-2009, 10:43 AM | #16 |
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The last chapter of the eight book of the Life of Apollonius appear to signify that the character was not known or as stated "lived unobserved" and left "unobserved".
It is very odd to me that Damis left information of Apollonius up to his "unobserved" disappearance from earth. If Apollonius was really deified, I would expect that his death would have been known independent of Damis, yet Philostratus could not find any information of the death of a deified man, a great philosopher with divine powers. I don't think Apollonius did exist, except as a myth. The 4th century coin of Apollonius maybe was minted in remembrance of the myth Apollonius, perhaps similar to having money with the words "In God we trust" where the words may make people think God indeed exist and can be trusted. |
01-18-2009, 12:38 PM | #17 | ||||
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If so, the works in which these statements of "provenance" of sources, must be judged biographies. Jeffrey Quote:
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01-18-2009, 03:14 PM | #18 | |||
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It took some effort Jeffrey but I think the above is the closest you've come in this Thread to directly addressing the OP. I deliberately said "biographies" and not "Greco Roman biographies". The larger context is what is the related evidential value. Obviously a biography is generally much better evidence than a story. I'll repeat "Sources are the key difference between biographies and stories as biographies utilize sources in order to control the content while stories avoid sources in order to free the narrative." In considering the potential evidential value of the Gospels we should be considering the modern definition of "biography". I am intentionally broadening the discussion beyond Greco-Roman biography. One of the techniques of Apologists is association. Here they do thusly: 1) The Gospels have common characteristics with Greco-Roman biographies. 2) Therefore the Gospels are Greco-Roman biographies. 3) Greco-Roman biographies are a type of biography. 4) Therefore Greco-Roman biographies are comparable to modern biographies. To have a consensus as to what exactly a Greco-Roman biography meant to an ancient you would have to have an ancient explain what exactly a Greco-Roman biography meant to an ancient. We don't have that do we. It's subjective. That's why there's no consensus. Brown (maybe you heard of him) summarily dismissed the Gospels as GR biography because they are instead, brace yourself, Gospels. "The Gospel of Jesus" vs. "The Life of Apollonius". You're the Greek professor, please translate "life" here into Greek. Brown specifically notes that "Mark" lacks a lineage, has no father and has no triumph. It should be apparent by now from this Thread that the ancients were aware of the importance of sources in order to distinguish between biography and story. Certainly GR biography was broader that modern biography as to use of sources which creates the problem that you can not be sure what the author intended to imply as to sources. The Apologist is correct that the GRB is more likely to have unidentified sources than a modern biography but it goes both ways. The lack of identification of sources in GRB makes it more likely that it has bad sources. My main points here are as follows: 1) There is no consensus as to the whether the Gospels are GRB. 2) The ancients were aware of the importance of sources regarding biographies. 3) In evaluating the Gospels as evidence, a more useful comparison is the modern biography. Quote:
Regarding chronology, my The Tale Wagging The Dogma. Which "Mark" Wrote "Mark"? A Dear John Letter indicates the best dating of "Mark" is post Bar Kochba c. 135. I have faith that you have also been moving in this direction. Joseph http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page |
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01-18-2009, 03:45 PM | #19 | |||||||
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Better, can you cite the places in their works where they can be seen to do/have done this? I'd also like to see what they specifically say, if they actually do, about the ways that "Greco-Roman biographies are comparable to modern biographies". To have a consensus as to what exactly a Greco-Roman biography meant to an ancient you would have to have an ancient explain what exactly a Greco-Roman biography meant to an ancient. We don't have that do we. We don't? Even indirectly? And isn't the issue not what the GR biographt meant to the ancient, but what literary features were essential to it, which distinguished it from anyother genre of literture that ancient writers employed? Quote:
And I see you've dodged my question regarding what you'd have to conclude, given your logic, about the genre of the text from which the quotes I provided you came. Jeffrey |
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01-19-2009, 06:34 AM | #20 | |
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