spin

The one whose initially preserved theology is found in the christian testament.

I don't think you've answered my question!


spin

spin

Let me ask the same in a slightly different manner: what purpose do you think the mention of John serves in the gospels? (It seems to me that you were imputing something when you said: "The only mention of John the Baptist outside of Christian sources is Josephus.")


spin

Chris Weimer

If you mean the post-Pauline Christians, probably as a model for the messenger to herald the way of the Christ, I suppose taken from Isaiah. Also, they may have left the remnant of JtB as a way of one-up-manship, i.e. Jesus being praised as better than even John.

I wasn't sure which group of Christians we were talking about.

Amaleq13

1. Response to a competing sect

2. Reinforcement of belief in Jesus as the Messiah

sodium

I think one likely explanation of John the Baptists's presence in Mark and Mark's dependents is Isaiah 40:3-5 and Malachi 3:1. If the narrative was at least partly constructed on the basis of the OT, which it almost certainly was, then this is certainly one example. Mark even quotes the passage he's using.

Of course, neither of the OT verses mention John by name, or give a detailed account like in Mark. But these passages (if you want to interpret them as prophecy of Jesus) demand that there be someone out in the wilderness presaging Jesus's arrival. For whatever reason, Mark wanted to use a historical figure from the right area, and John probably fit the bill. It's hard to comment too much because we don't know what reference Mark was using for his information about John.

sodium

#1 Maybe. But we don't have any real evidence that there ever was such a competing sect.
#2 But Mark doesn't really use it that way (except in relation to fulfilment of prophecy). The important point is the "Thou Art My Beloved Son" bit, but that could have come up in different contexts. I think it is probably important that Mark thinks Jesus needed to be baptized, though.

In John, of course, there's a long discussion about how John the Baptist is inferior to Jesus (and there's some of this in Luke and Matthew too). But that seems like a reaction to Mark. Mark probably thought nothing of having Jesus baptized, but obviously some Christians saw this as a big problem, as it could be taken as implying some superiority of John over Jesus. So they came up with all kinds of new dialogue to make everybody's roles much clearer.

But I think that if there was this big competition between John and Jesus, and this was originally meant as a response to a competing sect, then the problem would have been dealt with in some way at the beginning, with Mark. Mark didn't see a problem. Rather, Mark created the problem, which was later solved by the other gospels.

Clivedurdle

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=166416

Has there been any discussion that the baptism of Jesus was to wash away evil spirits from Jesus? Is it accepted that evil spirits don't like getting wet?

Is not the purpose of the John the Baptist stories to introduce Baptism to xianity? Are there any other sources for this practice? What does Paul say about Baptism?

(These comments are from someone who was "washed in the blood of the Lamb"!)

Clivedurdle

Thinking about why John the Baptist is in the New Testament reminds me of legion and

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=133673

Strange that a fudamental part of the architecture and ritual of the church - in catolicism the point of your salvation - seems to have such weak connections to the gospels. What is this fetish with water about?

Malachi151

Baptism was one of the major points of similarity that was recognized as the same as other pagan practices. That's what Tertullian wrote about, how the devil had spread the practise of baptisim ahead of Christianity.

spin

My interest is that John is presumed.

Perhaps the term "christian testament" for what is commonly and presumptuously called the "new testament" is a little obscure, but it's a matter of politics: usually when something is "new" it's better or supercedes the "old".


spin