Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Diogenes the Cynic · 07-10-2008, 02:03 PM

CSICOP on the carbon dating objections

(Summation: the objections are a load of apologist crap)

Cobalt · 07-10-2008, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beero1000

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

I don't know if this is a miracle, http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthr...77#post5272477
Not real explaination how this could happen. :huh:

Quote:

Researchers began to see that most people, unconsciously, began to react to the "emotional" images a full 5 seconds before they were selected by the computer program! What's more, they did not react to the "neutral" images. This result was statstically significant (p=0.00003) and has been repeated many times. It strongly suggests hat subjects can perceive the future.

Was there something wrong with the research?

what research? if you follow the links you get to a You Can Know The Future TOO kook website with the quote, but no references. (and a link to the Bereitschaftspotential wiki page.) after an extensive google search, I have yet to find anything about it from any respectable source. I suspect that its made up.

Wanting to see where this led, I checked it out too. There doesn't appear to be any such published research done by Marilyn Schlitz, as claimed in the originally supplied link. But there does appear to be a paper on the topic by D.J. Bierman and H.S. Scholte. Their conclusions don't seem much justified by the results though. A total of 10 subjects participated in the exercise with the anticipatory or 'pre-sentiment' amounting to a very meager 0.15% (for 6 men) and 0.22% (for 4 women) difference from baseline. A fraction of a percent difference from baseline, suesed from such a tiny subject pool? I'd say it's less than statistically significant.

Zaphod Beeblebrox · 07-10-2008, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

A supernatural event would be the 2 miracles listed in the thread.

What makes them supernatural? That's what's being asked.

dr lazer blast · 07-10-2008, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaphod Beeblebrox

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

A supernatural event would be the 2 miracles listed in the thread.

What makes them supernatural? That's what's being asked.

the fact that the sun spun and moved around without the earth being affected.

GenesisNemesis · 07-10-2008, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

the fact that the sun spun and moved around without the earth being affected.

Based on eyewitness testimony, of course. I understand that it was... what, 500,000 people who saw it? I know there are videos on youtube of various "Sun Miracles" too, but it's something you just have to "be there to believe". It's pointless to try to convince us of anything.

dr lazer blast · 07-10-2008, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenesisNemesis

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

the fact that the sun spun and moved around without the earth being affected.

Based on eyewitness testimony, of course. I understand that it was... what, 500,000 people who saw it? I know there are videos on youtube of various "Sun Miracles" too, but it's something you just have to "be there to believe".

what does the article say? i think it says as many as 100,000 i am not trying to convince you of anything I am just showing you there is documented proof of miracles.

GenesisNemesis · 07-10-2008, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

what does the article say? i think it says as many as 100,000

It was an educated guess. It's probably in the hundreds of thousands.

Zaphod Beeblebrox · 07-10-2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenesisNemesis

Based on eyewitness testimony, of course. I understand that it was... what, 500,000 people who saw it? I know there are videos on youtube of various "Sun Miracles" too, but it's something you just have to "be there to believe".

what does the article say? i think it says as many as 100,000 i am not trying to convince you of anything I am just showing you there is documented proof of miracles.

We understand your claim here - we simply wanted documented evidence of such miracles. Do we have reliable documentation (from eyewitnesses, or researchers) of the "Sun Miracle" at Fatima?

ahdenai · 07-10-2008, 03:13 PM

Even if the shroud is a thousand years older than isotope dating indicates, and even if the pigments are blood rather than paint, it would still just be an old cloth with some human remains imprinted. So what if the face has a beard?

And so what if you found some old tissue of the same AB blood type. AB accounts for 3-5% of humans. All that means is that one parent carried an A and one carried a B. Are you implying that the big J must have been a son of a B?

All of that is certainly less impressive than Otzi.

On the other hand, perhaps you could somehow sequence the DNA of the stain in the shroud (assuming you found confirmed human blood). Now you're on to something. The Y chromosome would presumably be directly from YHWH. Next go to church, watch the priest change the bread to flesh, and sequence that DNA. If it matches the stuff from the shroud, or from the lump of tissue, I'll be impressed.

judge · 07-25-2008, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beero1000

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

I don't know if this is a miracle, http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthr...77#post5272477
Not real explaination how this could happen. :huh:

Was there something wrong with the research?

what research? if you follow the links you get to a You Can Know The Future TOO kook website with the quote, but no references. (and a link to the Bereitschaftspotential wiki page.) after an extensive google search, I have yet to find anything about it from any respectable source. I suspect that its made up.

What about this

Quote:

Another study, described in the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, was reported by psychophysiologist Rollin McCraty and his colleagues from the Institute of Heartmath in Boulder Creek, California. McCraty's group simultaneously measured skin conductance, heart rate, and brainwave activity before, during, and after 26 participants viewed emotional and calm pictures. They found that both the heart (p < 0. 001) and the brain (p < 0. 05) responded about 5 seconds before the future emotional stimuli, and to their amazement, that the heart responded before the brain. They also observed significant gender differences in the processing of this future information (women performed better, on average, than men). They concluded: "Our findings suggest that intuitive perception is not a discrete function produced by a single part or system of the body alone. Rather, it appears that intuition may in fact be a system-wide process involving at least the heart and brain, together, in the processing and decoding of intuitive information." They highlighted that "the fact that the heart is involved in the perception of a future external event is a surprising, even astounding result, especially from the classical perspective that assigns the brain an exclusive role [for perception]."

From the same link.

What is the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine?

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07-10-2008, 02:03 PM	#61
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	CSICOP on the carbon dating objections (Summation: the objections are a load of apologist crap)

07-10-2008, 03:13 PM	#69
ahdenai Veteran Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: migrant worker, US Posts: 2,845	Even if the shroud is a thousand years older than isotope dating indicates, and even if the pigments are blood rather than paint, it would still just be an old cloth with some human remains imprinted. So what if the face has a beard? And so what if you found some old tissue of the same AB blood type. AB accounts for 3-5% of humans. All that means is that one parent carried an A and one carried a B. Are you implying that the big J must have been a son of a B? All of that is certainly less impressive than Otzi. On the other hand, perhaps you could somehow sequence the DNA of the stain in the shroud (assuming you found confirmed human blood). Now you're on to something. The Y chromosome would presumably be directly from YHWH. Next go to church, watch the priest change the bread to flesh, and sequence that DNA. If it matches the stuff from the shroud, or from the lump of tissue, I'll be impressed.

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