RenegadeOfPhunk

This is an excellent point - and I'd like a non-Mormon Christian to (try) and tackle it.

Assuming the (supposed) martydom of the disciples is for - very specifically - their testimony of the ressurected Christ (which as has been stated has some big question marks historically), what exactly would this prove anyway?

Why pick and choose the stories of martyrs your going to believe?
If you think that people who would die for beliefs must be telling the truth, then fine. Believe ALL martyrs. But if your going to pick and choose, your putting your own reason for believing the disciples in doubt...

As a short aside, I don't think Joseph Smith claimed that the Angel Moroni 'dictated' the Book of Mormon to him. I think Moroni led him to the 'Gold plates', when Joe then translated - with the help of some magic stones...
...but hey - he died for that belief, so it's all true right...

andrewcriddle

A/ What Gibbon actually says 'Decline and Fall' chapter 16 is that his calculated figure for deaths in the Great Persecution c 303-313 is about 2,000.

He believes, maybe correctly, that at least half of all Christian martyrdoms occurred during this persecution and hence presumably he held to a total figure of 3-4 thousand.

B/ His calculation involves numerous assumptions the most important of which is that the ninety-two martyrs listed by Eusebius in the 'Martyrs of Palestine' is an complete account of executions in that place and time, whereas the claims by Eusebius of thousands of deaths in Egypt can be dismissed as unreliable.

C/ Gibbon's whole argument is an attempt to reduce the number of martyrdoms in the Great Persecution to the absolute minimum. I don't think one can prove him wrong but I would regard 5,000 deaths in the Great persecution as a more plausible ball-park figure. (Plus several more thousands dying in various earlier persecutions.)

Andrew Criddle

Johnny Skeptic

However many Christian martyrs there actually were does not make any difference at all. A person can become a martyr because he believes a lie just as well as he can become a martyr if he believes the truth. There have been plenty of religious martyrs who were not Christians, and a good deal of those martyrs were actually killed by Christians. If every Muslim was willing to die for his faith, would Christians become Muslims? Of course not.

Unbeliever

This is surprisingly similar to Peter's three-time denial of Jesus after his arrest. Could this practice have found its way into the gospels?

Nero's Boot

I find it heart-wrenching that people would be willing to die over things that cannot be proven, ever, at any point in history.

--it's like being willing to die over the belief in Santa Claus NB

Unbeliever

I would think that natural selection should be working to weed out those with a martyr complex, but it doesn't seem to be having much effect yet. Maybe it takes a really long time to eliminate those destructive genes. A couple of thousand years isn't all that long, as evolution goes.

Nero's Boot

Sadly, the list of people willing to die, murder, rape, and terrorize for the faith never ceases to grow.

--and no, I'm not referring to Muslim extremists only NB

Huon

Although Marcus Aurelius was a philosopher, he was deeply religious, at least outwardly. The state cult received full honor, and he recognized the validity of other people's beliefs, so that the variety of religions in the vast extent of the empire caused no difficulties for inhabitants or government, with one significant exception. The Christians were not hampered by any official policy; indeed the impact of the church spread enormously in the second century. Yet their availability as scapegoats for local crises made them subject to abuse or worse. There was violence against them in 167, and perhaps the worst stain on Marcus' principate stemmed from the pogrom of Christians in Lugdunum (Lyons) in southern France in 177. A young girl slave (beautiful blonde, according to academic painters of the XIX c.), named Blandina, was martyrized in 177 at Lyons, along with 40 Christians of the region, including Saint Pothinus, bishop of Lyons, Attale, Epagathe, Sanctus, Biblis, Alexander, Alcibiade, Maturus. Their martyrdom was described by eyewitnesses who wrote a "Letter from the churches of Vienna and Lyons", sent to the churches of Phrygia and Asia, and transcribed by Eusebius.
Marcus Aurelius did not order this slaughter, nor, on the other hand, did he or his officials move to stop it. Tertullian called him a friend of Christianity.

BTW, Vienna is a town near Lyons, 40 km south, along the Rhone river.

Due to Saint Pothinus (and Blandina), the archbishop of Lyons is the "Primat des Gaules", the most important archbishop in Gaul, more important than the archb. of Paris.

Huon

Justin Martyr, born at Flavia Neapolis, about A.D. 100, converted to Christianity about A.D. 130, taught and defended the Christian religion in Asia Minor and at Rome, where he suffered martyrdom about the year 165. Two "Apologies" bearing his name and his "Dialogue with the Jew Tryphon" have come down to us.

Huon

If Eusebius of Caesarea Hist.Ecc., 5.21.1 is to be believed, the reign of Commodus, son of Marcus Aurelius, inaugurated a period of numerous conversions to Christianity. Tradition credits Commodus's policy to the influence of his concubine Marcia; she was probably his favorite, but it is not clear that she was a Christian. The Christian apologist Hippolytus tells that she was a Christian (Philos. 9.2.12), Dio tells that she simply favored the Christians (73.4). Herodian does not take a stand on the matter either way (1.16.4).More likely, Commodus preferred to neglect the sect. Cass. Dio, 73.15.