Ubercat

:rolling: That's silly! If god cared about not sending too many people to hell, he would have sent jeebus alot sooner, like right after Adam "chose" to sin.

-Ubercat

spin

You've debased the term "suffering" enough to render it meaningless. When you talk about suffering in the future we'll know that you're just bandying the word around as a coverall term. Gosh, Bertie "suffered" in his life!! You may as well say that my cat "suffers" when I feed her late.

Please step back into the real world for a moment and think about what the rest of us refer to when we use the word "suffer". Let's call it "suffer1" and yours "suffer2". Most people in Uganda suffer1. Most people in Afghanistan suffer1. Relatively few people in the US suffer1. Relatively few people in Denmark suffer1, though fewer than in the US. I can appreciate the fact that everybody suffer2s in their lives. Just a day ago, I hastily did my zipper up and suffer2ed for it.

This degradation of the term "suffer" you tout tends to hide the fact that there is suffer1ing in this world. In the ocean protected relatively fertile land of America the conditions are such that the only reason why people suffer1 is that people are too interested in their own suffer2ing to care.


spin

Sven

Not 100%, OK. But by examining their brains, we can say a lot with condifence.

I'm not talking about the suffering they inflict - I'm talking about the suffering they have to endure. Why exactly would a loving god let animals suffer, who are not able to make choices and are thus not responsible for anything they do?

Sven

I see. If you are not able to point to anything which fits your argument, you simply declare "not always obvious, and not always revealed to others" and are done with it.

[snip remaining rant]

Sheshbazzar

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
suffer
One entry found for suffer.


Main Entry: suf·fer
Pronunciation: 's&-f&r
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): suf·fered; suf·fer·ing /-f(&-)ri[ng]/
Etymology: Middle English suffren, from Old French souffrir, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin sufferire, from Latin sufferre, from sub- up + ferre to bear -- more at SUB-, BEAR
transitive senses

1 a : to submit to or be forced to endure <suffer martyrdom> b : to feel keenly : labor under <suffer thirst>
2 : UNDERGO, EXPERIENCE
3 : to put up with especially as inevitable or unavoidable
4 : to allow especially by reason of indifference <the eagle suffers little birds to sing -- Shakespeare>
intransitive senses
1 : to endure death, pain, or distress
2 : to sustain loss or damage
3 : to be subject to disability or handicap
synonym see BEAR
- suf·fer·able /'s&-f(&-)r&-b&l/ adjective
- suf·fer·able·ness noun
- suf·fer·ably /-blE/ adverb
- suf·fer·er /'s&-f&r-&r/ noun

Sheshbazzar

TheFreeDictionary Google


suffer Also found in: Idioms, Columbia, Wikipedia, Hutchinson

suf·fer (sfr)
v. suf·fered, suf·fer·ing, suf·fers
v.intr.
1. To feel pain or distress; sustain loss, injury, harm, or punishment.
2. To tolerate or endure evil, injury, pain, or death. See Synonyms at bear1.
3. To appear at a disadvantage: "He suffers by comparison with his greater contemporary" Albert C. Baugh.
v.tr.
1. To undergo or sustain (something painful, injurious, or unpleasant): "Ordinary men have always had to suffer the history their leaders were making" Herbert J. Muller.
2. To experience; undergo: suffer a change in staff.
3. To endure or bear; stand: would not suffer fools.
4. To permit; allow: "They were not suffered to aspire to so exalted a position as that of streetcar conductor" Edmund S. Morgan.

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[Middle English suffren, from Old French sufrir, from Vulgar Latin *sufferre, from Latin sufferre : sub-, sub- + ferre, to carry; see bher-1 in Indo-European roots.]

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suffer·er n.
suffer·ing·ly adv.
Usage Note: In general usage the preferred preposition after suffer is from, rather than with, in constructions such as He suffered from hypertension. Ninety-four percent of the Usage Panel found suffered with unacceptable in the preceding example. In medical usage suffer with is sometimes employed with reference to the pain or discomfort caused by a condition, while suffer from is used more broadly in reference to a condition, such as anemia, that is detrimental but not necessarily painful.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words AntonymsVerb 1.

suffer - undergo or be subjected to; "He suffered the penalty"; "Many saints suffered martyrdom"
endure
tolerate - have a tolerance for a poison or strong drug or pathogen; "The patient does not tolerate the anti-inflammatory drugs we gave him"
die - suffer or face the pain of death; "Martyrs may die every day for their faith"
experience, go through, undergo, see - go or live through; "We had many trials to go through"; "he saw action in Viet Nam"
enjoy - have for one's benefit; "The industry enjoyed a boom"
2. suffer - undergo (as of injuries and illnesses); "She suffered a fracture in the accident"; "He had an insulin shock after eating three candy bars"; "She got a bruise on her leg"; "He got his arm broken in the scuffle"
sustain, have, get
collapse, break down - collapse due to fatigue, an illness, or a sudden attack
have - suffer from; be ill with; "She has arthritis"
crack up, crock up, collapse, break up, crack - suffer a nervous breakdown
undergo, experience, have, receive, get - of mental or physical states or experiences; "get an idea"; "experience vertigo"; "get nauseous"; "undergo a strange sensation"; "The chemical undergoes a sudden change"; "The fluid undergoes shear"; "receive injuries"; "have a feeling"
3. suffer - endure (emotional pain); "Every time her husband gets drunk, she suffers"
brook, endure, tolerate, stomach, abide, bear, digest, stick out, suffer, put up, stand, support - put up with something or somebody unpleasant; "I cannot bear his constant criticism"; "The new secretary had to endure a lot of unprofessional remarks"; "he learned to tolerate the heat"; "She stuck out two years in a miserable marriage"
feel, experience - undergo an emotional sensation; "She felt resentful"; "He felt regret"
agonise, agonize - suffer agony or anguish
anguish - suffer great pains or distress
lose - suffer the loss of a person through death or removal; "She lost her husband in the war"; "The couple that wanted to adopt the child lost her when the biological parents claimed her"
grieve, sorrow - feel grief; eat one's heart out
4. suffer - put up with something or somebody unpleasant; "I cannot bear his constant criticism"; "The new secretary had to endure a lot of unprofessional remarks"; "he learned to tolerate the heat"; "She stuck out two years in a miserable marriage"
brook, endure, tolerate, stomach, abide, bear, digest, stick out, put up, stand, support
live with, swallow, accept - tolerate or accommodate oneself to; "I shall have to accept these unpleasant working conditions"; "I swallowed the insult"; "She has learned to live with her husband's little idiosyncracies"
hold still for, stand for - tolerate or bear; "I won't stand for this kind of behavior!"
bear up - endure cheerfully; "She bore up under the enormous strain"
take lying down - suffer without protest; suffer or endure passively; "I won't take this insult lying down"
take a joke - listen to a joke at one's one expense; "Can't you take a joke?"
undergo, submit, take - accept or undergo, often unwillingly; "We took a pay cut"
sit out - endure to the end
pay - bear (a cost or penalty), in recompense for some action; "You'll pay for this!"; "She had to pay the penalty for speaking out rashly"; "You'll pay for this opinion later"
countenance, permit, allow, let - consent to, give permission; "She permitted her son to visit her estranged husband"; "I won't let the police search her basement"; "I cannot allow you to see your exam"
suffer - endure (emotional pain); "Every time her husband gets drunk, she suffers"
5. suffer - get worse; "His grades suffered"
decline, worsen - grow worse; "Conditions in the slum worsened"
lose, suffer - be set at a disadvantage; "This author really suffers in translation"
6. suffer - feel pain or be in pain
hurt
have - suffer from; be ill with; "She has arthritis"
choke, gag, strangle, suffocate - struggle for breath; have insufficient oxygen intake; "he swallowed a fishbone and gagged"
ail - be unwell, ill, or ill disposed
famish, starve, hunger - be hungry; go without food; "Let's eat--I'm starving!"
be - have the quality of being; (copula, used with an adjective or a predicate noun); "John is rich"; "This is not a good answer"
be well - be healthy; feel good; "She has not been well lately"
7. suffer - feel physical pain; "Were you hurting after the accident?"
ache, hurt
perceive, comprehend - to become aware of through the senses; "I could perceive the ship coming over the horizon"
catch, get - suffer from the receipt of; "She will catch hell for this behavior!"
twinge - feel a sudden sharp, local pain
twinge, prick, sting - cause a stinging pain; "The needle pricked his skin"
kill - be the source of great pain for; "These new shoes are killing me!"
8. suffer - undergo or suffer; "meet a violent death"; "suffer a terrible fate"
meet
experience, go through, undergo, see - go or live through; "We had many trials to go through"; "he saw action in Viet Nam"
9. suffer - feel unwell or uncomfortable; "She is suffering from the hot weather"
freeze - be cold; "I could freeze to death in this office when the air conditioning is turned on"
swelter - be uncomfortably hot
be - have the quality of being; (copula, used with an adjective or a predicate noun); "John is rich"; "This is not a good answer"
10. suffer - be given to; "She suffers from a tendency to talk too much"
be given, incline, tend, lean, run - have a tendency or disposition to do or be something; be inclined; "She tends to be nervous before her lectures"; "These dresses run small"; "He inclined to corpulence"
11. suffer - be set at a disadvantage; "This author really suffers in translation"
lose
decline, worsen - grow worse; "Conditions in the slum worsened"
suffer - get worse; "His grades suffered"

Gamera

Ah, I see your point now.

Well, but your assumption is twofold now. (a) that animals have conscousness of suffering, and (b) that animal suffering is meaningless. I don't accept either. I rather doubt that animals have consciousness of suffering as we do, given they lack all other indicia of self-awareness. But let's say they do. If so, then having consciousness, wouldn't their suffering have meaning just as ours does? Doesn't the resolution of (a) in your favor imply the resolution of (b) against your position?

Gamera

Check the manuscript dates on these and get back with me. All post Christian.

Gamera

You bet. Many people called themselves Christians and may have even been "cultural" Christians, but ignored the unique teachings of the gospel. Still lots of people like that today. They're called fundamentalists. What does that have to do with the issue of how Christian ethics changed the world.

Gamera

I find it frightening too. The Hebrews should have said, no way God. It's wrong to kill others. But nobody believed that back then (and many if not most don't believe that now). God would have been overjoyed if they had, just as he was overjoyed when Abraham pointed out to him that he was wrong to destroy Sodom if there were any righteous people in it. Abraham directly questions the rightness of God's decision, and God agrees. That's what he wants us to do -- challenge the concept of a theology God and experience love. Indeed, I think God didn't want Abraham to attempt to sacrifice Isaac. I think the text suggests that he wanted Abraham to argue with him, just as he did about Sodom, and to tell God its dead wrong to sacrifice a child at any time for any reason, so count me out. That would have been the right answer.

As to heaven, please, to quibble over what will experience now versus what we will experience as transformed persons is useless. The bible is virtually silent on what heaven means, and most of what it says is pure metaphor. The fact is, we're human now and human existence is embedded in a physical universe and free will. What an existence in heaven will be like, I have no idea and don't need to figure out to address the issue before us.