Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 04-22-2011, 02:36 AM

An interesting blog post Matt. 27:51-53 - The resurrection of the sleeping saints from their tombs

Part of the interest here is that the evangelical scholar/author has to continually allow for the possibility that this really happened, even though

Quote:

From a historical-critical perspective the little story is highly problematic and has had even some more conservative commentators scratching their heads and wondering what it’s doing there. A.B. Bruce tentatively suggested more than 100 years ago that we “seem here to be in the region of Christian legend”. R.T. France thinks that the historical character of the account must be a “matter of faith, not of objective demonstration”. Even Leon Morris seems reluctant directly to affirm its historicity, preferring to say that Matthew is “giving expression to his conviction that Jesus is Lord over both the living and the dead”.1

... As Hagner writes: “The problem is that the event makes little historical sense, whereas what does make sense is the theological point that is being made.” It probably has to be understood, therefore, as a “piece of theology set forth as history”.2

On the whole, I am inclined to agree with Hagner, though to say that the “event makes little historical sense” is not quite the same as saying that it could not have happened.

But after this, the author identifies three parts of the Septuagint that make sense of this:

Quote:

Three Old Testament passages shed light on the eschatological significance of the episode: Isaiah 26:19, Daniel 12:2, and Ezekiel 37:12-14.

1. Isaiah 26:19 is part of a prophecy of the restoration of Jerusalem and of Judah, when the impious and the strong cities are brought down, and the humble and godly are lifted up. The people suffer a “small affliction” of God’s “chastening”, like a woman who cries out in labour, before giving birth to salvation (26:17-18 LXX). Then we have a statement about the dead being raised from their tombs (only in LXX) as part of the healing of Israel:

The dead shall rise (anastēsontai), and those in the tombs (mnēmeiois) shall be raised (egerthēsontai), and those in the earth shall rejoice; for the dew from you is healing to them, but the land of the impious will fall. (Is. 26:19 LXX)

...

Doug Shaver · 04-23-2011, 06:48 AM

Quote:

A.B. Bruce tentatively suggested more than 100 years ago that we “seem here to be in the region of Christian legend”.

Oh, gee, ya think?

hjalti · 04-23-2011, 08:54 AM

I think one of the leading New testament scholars of our day, N. T. Wright, makes a good point when he says when discussing this passage something like: Some stories are so strange, that they might just be true.

Good ol' critical, biblical scholarship.

Zenaphobe · 04-23-2011, 10:56 AM

Would the Criterion of Embarrassment support that this is more likely to have historically occurred ?

Minimalist · 04-23-2011, 12:39 PM

I have noticed that when fundies talk about their inerrant bible they always get real quiet when this story is mentioned.

dogsgod · 04-23-2011, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenaphobe

Would the Criterion of Embarrassment support that this is more likely to have historically occurred ?

Ha, that's funny, I like it.

Zenaphobe · 04-23-2011, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

I have noticed that when fundies talk about their inerrant bible they always get real quiet when this story is mentioned.

We had a thread about this very thing some time back but I can't remember what sort of mental gymnastics went into them trying to argue that it was a literal event.

I think it boiled down to, "Were you there? How do you know it didn't happen as the Bible says it did?"

Because, you know, unless you can disprove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, it happened just like the Gospel said it did. QED.

hjalti · 04-23-2011, 04:15 PM

Here's what a respected, some would say a leading, New testament scholar has to say:

Quote:

It is impossible, and for our purposes unnecessary, to adjuticate on the question of historicity. Things that we are told by one source only, when in other respects the sources are parallel, may be suspect, especially when events like earthquakes were (as 24.7 makes clear) part of the stock in trade of apocalyptic expectation. But it remains the case that the events Matthew describes in 27.51-53, as well as being without parallel in other early Christian sources, are without precedent in second-Temple expectation, and we may doubt whether stories such as this would have been invented simply to 'fulfil' prophecies that nobody had understood this way before. This is hardly a satisfactory conclusion, but it is better to remain puzzled than to settle for either a difficult argument for probable historicity or a cheap and cheerful rationalistic dismissal of the possibility. Some stories are so odd that they may just have happened. This may be one of them, but in historical terms there is no way of finding out.

PinkZinc · 04-23-2011, 04:31 PM

Who were these 'saints' that joined the March of the Zombies? Couldn`t have been any of Jesus' followers who (afaik) hadn`t karked it yet. Could it have been notables like Ezra, David and-gasp-Moses? Bet there was a queue for HIS autograph.

Minimalist · 04-23-2011, 05:25 PM

Quote:

or a cheap and cheerful rationalistic dismissal of the possibility.

Feel free to call me "cheap," "cheerful" and "rationalistic!"

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04-23-2011, 08:54 AM	#3
hjalti Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Iceland Posts: 761	I think one of the leading New testament scholars of our day, N. T. Wright, makes a good point when he says when discussing this passage something like: Some stories are so strange, that they might just be true. Good ol' critical, biblical scholarship.

04-23-2011, 10:56 AM	#4
Zenaphobe Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: In the NC trailer park Posts: 6,631	Would the Criterion of Embarrassment support that this is more likely to have historically occurred ?

04-23-2011, 12:39 PM	#5
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	I have noticed that when fundies talk about their inerrant bible they always get real quiet when this story is mentioned.

04-23-2011, 04:31 PM	#9
PinkZinc Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 12	Who were these 'saints' that joined the March of the Zombies? Couldn`t have been any of Jesus' followers who (afaik) hadn`t karked it yet. Could it have been notables like Ezra, David and-gasp-Moses? Bet there was a queue for HIS autograph.

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