Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spamandham · 09-06-2008, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evangelical

Quote:

Originally Posted by HelpingHand

Not OK. If I am the creator of everything (God is supposed to be, isn't He?) then I am not only the creator of the wall but also the creator of the wrecking ball.
So, the hole is still my responsibility.

You are the creator of the wrecking ball, in a sense, but you are not the one who uses it to break a hole in your wall. Therefore, you are not responsible for the privation.

But god is also the creator of the one who uses the wrecking ball. ...but not just any creator, and omniscient creator - one who created the wrecking ball operator fully knowing he would use the wrecking ball.

There is no sense in which god is not himself responsible.

Amaleq13 · 09-07-2008, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evangelical

It is logically impossible that God could have created free humans without the possibility that we would sin.

Do you believe that the folks in heaven still have the possibility to sin?

Earl IV · 09-07-2008, 08:54 AM

Who put the snake (wrecking ball) in the garden?

Helpmabob · 09-09-2008, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earl IV

Who put the snake (wrecking ball) in the garden?

Presumably this is some sort of an objection to the doctrine of good, evil and grace rather than a biblical contradiction.

HelpingHand · 09-10-2008, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evangelical

In response to my comments about God being outside of time, and so forth, you wrote

That is most certainly not a contradiction. It would only be necessarily a contradiction if "p" and "not-p" are used at the same time and in the same respect. evangelical is 31 and not-31 are both true at different times, after all.

When God says,"It is good" He is talking in an absolute sense. If something is absolutely good, it cannot possibly become bad. Yet the Bible says things did get bad. This is a fundamental contradiction.

Quote:

This is a misuse of analogy. By 'very good wall' is included the idea that it is sturdy. That is, it cannot collapse all on its own the next moment (assuming that you are telling the truth). Notice what you have left out of the analogy this time. Namely, the wrecking ball and the free choice of another to use it against your perfectly good wall. The universe did not collapse all on its own.

Yes, it did. Humans and their free choices are a part of the universe, just as the cement in the wall.

Quote:

It only collapsed because free humans-and free humans are part of the good creation-abused their freedom and we ourselves made it, the universe, to collapse.

We are part of the universe, so if God said the universe is good there is no way for it to become bad. We are part of the universe.

Quote:

Now, let me ask you a question. Would you rather be fated to do everything or free to choose? Would you like to marry a robot that you have programmed to love you, or a human being? It is logically impossible that God could have created free humans without the possibility that we would sin. To say that He could have or should have is to be objectively irrational.

This has to do with the whole philosophical question of free will and that goes beyond this thread. The question is whether "all is good" is a contradiction with the rest of the Bible. And it clearly is.

Walter

haitu · 09-10-2008, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evangelical

Now, let me ask you a question. Would you rather be fated to do everything or free to choose? Would you like to marry a robot that you have programmed to love you, or a human being? It is logically impossible that God could have created free humans without the possibility that we would sin. To say that He could have or should have is to be objectively irrational.

but god can do anything and everything. wheres your logic there?

spamandham · 09-10-2008, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evangelical

It is logically impossible that God could have created free humans without the possibility that we would sin.

There you go. I fixed it for you.

CrazyHorse · 09-11-2008, 07:09 PM

Isaiah 45:7

Quote:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

According to the holey bable the creator creates evil. Also if I had freewill I would not have superstitious parents.

Aedan · 09-12-2008, 04:56 AM

Some Christians claim that the Bible is the 'inspired word of God.' If that is the case, then it should be without error, because if it is not, then that would mean that god is not perfect.
Note that this applies to translations as well: if god dictated the Bible to a select group of authors, and if this all-powerful, perfect god did so because he wanted to send a message to his followers, then surely this all-powerful god could have inspired the translators as well, to keep the errors out, if he really had anything important to say. Otherwise this all-powerful god was just wasting his time when he dictated the Bible in the first place.

So when they claim that contradictions are a result of translation errors, basically they're saying that their god is an idiot.

The Bible contains hundreds, if not thousands, of contradictions, contraries, and absurdities. Bear in mind that if even ONE of these absurdities is a true contradiction, then the entire Bible is in question. If a 'perfect' god could allow a mistake in his 'holy book,' then how can that god really be perfect?

There are five usual responses that I get when I post biblical contradictions. These are:

1. "That word meant something different then that it does now" (so apparently god can't keep his message consistent...that must be outside of the realm of his omnipotence...see above)
2. "You've taken that passage out of context." (Never mind that they can never seem to explain the proper context, nor that when they are trying to 'prove' prophecy in the Bible they take things out of context left and right)
3. "It just looks like a contradiction to you because you don't have the 'holy spirit' to guide you." (Never mind that there are over 30,000 denominations of christianity, all claiming to have divine guidance, and all teaching different doctrines...apparently either god can't make up his mind, or he's a real practical joker)
4. "There are no contradictions in the Bible, therefore even though I agree this looks like a contradiction, it's not really." (This is the cognitive equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying, "lalalalalalalalaala, I can't hear you.")
5. "Oh yeah? Well you're a doodyhead!" (For the overwhelming majority of Christians who debate on message boards and in chat rooms, their preferred method of discourse.)

bacht · 09-12-2008, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aedan

The Bible contains hundreds, if not thousands, of contradictions, contraries, and absurdities. Bear in mind that if even ONE of these absurdities is a true contradiction, then the entire Bible is in question. If a 'perfect' god could allow a mistake in his 'holy book,' then how can that god really be perfect?

I don't think Jews, Catholics, or Greek Orthodox claim that the Bible is perfect.

Arguing over details is a handy distraction from actually trying to live by the ethical teachings, which are simple.

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09-07-2008, 08:54 AM	#103
Earl IV Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Somewhere between lost and hopelessly lost Posts: 6,336	Who put the snake (wrecking ball) in the garden?

09-12-2008, 04:56 AM	#109
Aedan Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Spartanburg SC Posts: 16	Some Christians claim that the Bible is the 'inspired word of God.' If that is the case, then it should be without error, because if it is not, then that would mean that god is not perfect. Note that this applies to translations as well: if god dictated the Bible to a select group of authors, and if this all-powerful, perfect god did so because he wanted to send a message to his followers, then surely this all-powerful god could have inspired the translators as well, to keep the errors out, if he really had anything important to say. Otherwise this all-powerful god was just wasting his time when he dictated the Bible in the first place. So when they claim that contradictions are a result of translation errors, basically they're saying that their god is an idiot. The Bible contains hundreds, if not thousands, of contradictions, contraries, and absurdities. Bear in mind that if even ONE of these absurdities is a true contradiction, then the entire Bible is in question. If a 'perfect' god could allow a mistake in his 'holy book,' then how can that god really be perfect? There are five usual responses that I get when I post biblical contradictions. These are: 1. "That word meant something different then that it does now" (so apparently god can't keep his message consistent...that must be outside of the realm of his omnipotence...see above) 2. "You've taken that passage out of context." (Never mind that they can never seem to explain the proper context, nor that when they are trying to 'prove' prophecy in the Bible they take things out of context left and right) 3. "It just looks like a contradiction to you because you don't have the 'holy spirit' to guide you." (Never mind that there are over 30,000 denominations of christianity, all claiming to have divine guidance, and all teaching different doctrines...apparently either god can't make up his mind, or he's a real practical joker) 4. "There are no contradictions in the Bible, therefore even though I agree this looks like a contradiction, it's not really." (This is the cognitive equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying, "lalalalalalalalaala, I can't hear you.") 5. "Oh yeah? Well you're a doodyhead!" (For the overwhelming majority of Christians who debate on message boards and in chat rooms, their preferred method of discourse.)

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